The cost of instruments VS pedal steels

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 Jun 2003 2:44 pm

Rick. I have played many times a 1934 F-5 valued at $16,000 10 years ago. It puts my 1912 to shame and I love my mando.

Bruce Springsteen paid $100 an hour to rent it for a session, plus dinner and car service for the owner to wait in the studio till he was done playing it.
It sounds that good..
Until I played it's previous owners "NEW" mando, a '29 Lloyd Loar signed F-5..
And saw/heard where the bar is really raised to. I then knew why people say this is IT.

All my tests of mandolins ALWAYS are compared to these two. Not because that's what I want to do.. but because I have no choice.
There is a quality of sound I can't find anywhere else. And that's the bottom line.

Are the prices too high, most likely. But not so much as might be suspected. Is the value of the instrument beyond reproach undoubtedly.

So the market dictates what it is worth to someone that values the sound. And secondarily the authenticity.

Still it ain't nothing in price compared to a Stradivarious or Guerinni

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Jun 2003 3:13 pm

$1200-$1400 will get you a pretty decent used pedal steel guitar. Now add $300-$400 for a good used amp, and $100 for a used pedal, and you're in business! (I figure that at $1600-$1900.)

What you really need, and what others will "tell" you that you need, are two different things. I think that starting off with a new D10 8+8 Emmons, Zum, or "Mill" is like giving a 16 year-old kid a Ferrari. He may look "good behind the wheel", but likely he won't be able to handle it!

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 3 Jun 2003 3:50 pm

i just bought a fender 400 with 8 pedals in super shape. replaced some springs on the lowers and it is just great. 24.5 scale. fixed bridge and fixed nut. amazing tone.
i think sneaky pete was on to something.
total cost with shipping $500.

Steve Frost · Post by **Steve Frost** » 3 Jun 2003 7:47 pm

David-
"Until I played it's previous owners "NEW" mando, a '29 Lloyd Loar signed F-5..
And saw/heard where the bar is really raised to."
I'm not trying to be a precision freak, but as I understand it, Loar split from Gibson in 1924. So there aren't any 1929 Loar-signed Gibsons. They carried the same design for a while , but it gradually wandered away from its roots. Doubtless there are some great sounding mandos from the late 20's and the 30's, but Loar never saw them. FYI- Steve

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 3 Jun 2003 9:28 pm

What would Jesus play?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Jun 2003 5:23 am

A Black Mica Push-Pull
Duuuuuuuuh!

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 4 Jun 2003 10:25 am

When we start talking about needs VS wants then we need to start understanding Human nature. We can all play a job on a $1,000.00 used guitar and a $300.00 used amp. So why do we buy new PSG's at any price. For the same reason some of us spend $40,000 or $50,000 dollars for a new automobile. A $5,000.00 used one will get us to work and home. Why do we spend $50.00 on a shirt at J.C. Penny when we can get one for $18.00 at Wal-Mart. Musical instruments are the same. As humans we all have our own particular set of guidlines for spending. Some buy what they can afford, some can afford what they want and some buy what we want even when we can't afford it. Pedal Steel guitars are no different from any other peice of merchandise. Some people will buy what they can afford and get by with it, some will buy a mid price PSG and some of us will choose the luxery models. Joan and I have eight PSG's and they range in price from low to high. It just so happens that my favorite is the most expensive one. This thread has been fun for me.

Johnny

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 4 Jun 2003 10:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>A Black Mica Push-Pull
Duuuuuuuuh!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought "The Blade" was Rosewood Mica...

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Jun 2003 12:08 pm

Yeah, but it doesn't look like it

Actually, I prefer the sound of the black one he used on the live '77 recordings. I believe I recall Buddy saying he does too (something about blistering a beagle's ear)

FWIW (not much)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 4 Jun 2003 12:15 pm

Steve Frost, you are correct. Signed Gibson Lloyd Loar F5's only happened from 22' to 24'. It's kinda skethchy on exactly how many there were - Somewhere between 170 and 250. Regardless, they are one of the most sought after acoustic intruments of all time (for good reason). I would guess next to only pre-war Martins.

I think it's safe to say we'll never see this kind of value appreciation in vintage pedal steels... At least not in my lifetime.

Respectfully,

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<marquee><H1>Dave Burr
Remington Sustainmaster SD-10 3x4</marquee>

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 4 Jun 2003 12:20 pm

Larry,

James Dean could not have looked as "cool" as Buddy did in that picture.

{sorry for the topic drift}

Respectfully,
Dave Burr[This message was edited by Dave Burr on 04 June 2003 at 01:21 PM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 4 Jun 2003 12:50 pm

Who else thinks that BE looks like DeNiro in that old picture?

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 6 Jun 2003 3:36 am

A dealer may have the new guitars but most buyers want the max for their money.Money is very tight in this bad economy.In the U.S. music stores go under every year.We are down to one in our large city.Mars is a fine example of what I am talking about.If the product is out of the reach of most then be ready to keep it on display.Guitars may be worth thousands but who is going to buy them?How many can a store sell a year?Are there enough people to support the high end products?Many stores pay the bills with selling used guitars while the new ones sit there for many months.Electronic web sites also have taken a huge bite out of the local guitar stores profit who are not on the web.Web sites bring in the $$$$.Value with quality are two words that people are looking for today.So the dealer must know his market.How much will a buyer pay for his product?What can a dealer sell the guitar for and still make a living?You can price it to sell it or keep it.I enjoy looking at the toys of the rich but looking is all I can do.[This message was edited by Andy Alford on 06 June 2003 at 04:42 AM.][This message was edited by Andy Alford on 06 June 2003 at 07:54 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 6 Jun 2003 7:58 am

Steve I believe he joined in middle '24 and left in late '29

"So there aren't any 1929 Loar-signed Gibsons."
Tell that to the VP of Mandolin Brothers...

Not any I would disagree with,
not many, sure.
I played it. I saw the signature..
and I could tell it was that much better than the '34 I had just played (and played frequently) before it... and not because someone told me it was. It had a great clear bottom.

After I played it for 1/2 an hour they explained what they looked for in it, and I had already been noticing those things.
I don't see that combination in other mandolins.

Steve Frost · Post by **Steve Frost** » 10 Jan 2005 6:25 pm

David - I just saw your response about the Loar mandolins, a year and a half later, and I believe you are misinformed. It runs contrary to everything else I have ever heard about Loar. If he signed a '29 Gibson it was a cameo appearance, 'cause he was long gone. Try googling "Gibson Lloyd Loar", and see if the year 1929 figures significantly into any of the websites. I don't believe it will. I don't claim to know a lot about steel guitars, but I am a bit of a mando freak.

- Steve

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 10 Jan 2005 9:24 pm

I have a 2002 Hohner, Chord Master 48 harmonica that cost me $2,220.00. You can buy a almost new, but used, D-12 5&4 pedal steel for less than that harmonica. In fact my bass harmonica is worth $1,200.00. (I shouldn’t say “worth” I should be saying that’s the going price)

Yes, it does seem strange that a beautifully hand crafted steel guitar can be bought and sold for comparable pennies. There must be a message in here someplace that steelers are not picking up on. What is it?

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 10 January 2005 at 09:26 PM.][This message was edited by Les Anderson on 10 January 2005 at 09:36 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 11 Jan 2005 1:38 am

Steve I am sure that I was off on the date,
but not the signature, I saw it,
nor the sound as a reference, It was made in the last 6 months he was there.

The other was a '34 and sweet.

Les I was originaly a harmonica player in my early bands,
in Boston when J. Giels Band and Magic Dick were in their prime.

Our nerdowell bassplayer's father was the founding full time member of the HarmoniCats, and I got some lessons from him.

Plus I got to play with him all those old Harmonica Wheels he had made with all the keys and styles on one unit. A serious player for sure.

I can imagine the cost to recreate thos wheels these days, a Blues Harp was $1,59 back then.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 11 January 2005 at 01:44 AM.]

Bill Myrick · Post by **Bill Myrick** » 11 Jan 2005 4:09 am

Last year I paid a little over 30,000.00 in Workers Comp insurance to cover 7 workers. We build low profile type buildings like horse barns, etc !!! rediculous, especially with a "no claims" record. !!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Jan 2005 6:55 am

I think Larry Bell hit the nail on the head. You can walk into Guitar Center and come out with a starter electric guitar and amp for $200-300 bucks. Kids get these for Christmas all the time. For a starter pedal steel and amp it will cost you $2,000-3,000 just to take something home to find out if you want to play one. If it turns out you don't, and you don't live in Texas or Tennessee, just try to get rid of that sucker. That's the problem with getting started on pedal steel. On the other hand the used and new pro quality pedal steels are an incredible bargain.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 11 Jan 2005 10:23 am

DD
a new Carter Starter and an amp will be had for a grand no problem
.
That is moren than enough to decide if you want to play or not.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 11 Jan 2005 1:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>David wrote:

Les I was originaly a harmonica player in my early bands, in Boston when J. Giels Band and Magic Dick were in their prime.

Our nerdowell bassplayer's father was the founding full time member of the HarmoniCats, and I got some lessons from him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What was this fellow's name David? The Harmonicats went through a lot of players in the early forties. I always thought it was Jerry Murad who was the original founder of the Hamonicats. Previous to that they tried half a dozen different names; including The Harmonica Quad, Harmonica Madcaps, they then sort of split and joined the Harmonica Rascals; that didn't work out so they re-grouped and became the Harmonicats: hence Near You, then Peg O My Heart.

I played with them for three engagements in 1960 in Fort William Ont. St Paul, Min and De Moines, Iowa when Al Fiore got sick and couldn't do the shows (I was only 20 at the time)

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 11 Jan 2005 1:56 pm

The Loar-signed mandos are from 1922 to 1924. Lloyd Loar left Gibson in !924.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 11 Jan 2005 2:00 pm

There must be a reason why the steel guitar has not climbed the $$$ value ladder along with other instruments. I also have to disagree that it is an easy and simplistic instrument to build. In fact, to the majority of audiences, it’s one of the first instruments that people head for when they wander up on stage. It holds a mystery that few, other than stage musicians, actually know about.

Maybe it’s low value is because it was so genre connected to the “so called” hill billy music for too long? Just a thought.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Recluse · Post by **Recluse** » 11 Jan 2005 3:20 pm

Don't look for any sympathy from a professional violinist. 4G is entry level for a good bow. A talented student will spend about 30-40 G for a setup that will take them through school to a major orchestra. after that the sky's the limit.
I might also add: as professional equipment goes, the last machine I bought for my
machine shop was 90G

Steels, if looked at as a professional tool, are mercifully underpriced.

Steve Bailey

Recluse · Post by **Recluse** » 11 Jan 2005 3:48 pm

Howard R. Mr Johnson is right about Workers' Comp. My last rate was .102827
A $3000 per month payment would cover an annual payroll of $350,102.60 which around here would barely pay 8 skilled workers.
Just love the government.
Steve Bailey