The cost of instruments VS pedal steels

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 1 Jun 2003 12:42 pm

A freind of mine that I go to church with happens to be the manager of a guitar store in Opry Mills here in Nasville. We were having a conversation this morning concerning the prices of different musical instruments including pedal steels. I mentioned to him that the sticker price of a new pedal steel ranges from $2,995.00 to $5,995.00 (8+5) depending on the builder. He surprised me by saying that pedal steels are cheap in comparison to other quality crafted instruments such as dobros, mandolins, banjos and acoustic guitars. He explained to me that an inexpensive Dobro on sale is $1,000.00 and that his store sold many of the other instruments mentioned for prices in excess of $5,000 to $7,000. The mandolin he was playing in church this morning retails at $11,000.00 and he is getting one built that sells for $14,000.00. It is obvious to me that it takes much more labor, materials and craftmanship to build a pedal steel that it does a mandolin.
In other conversations I have had over the past few months I have found that pedal steel guitars are relatively inexpensive intruments to purchase when comparing them to other custom made, high quality instruments. We all know that there are the cheap copies of guitars, banjos, dobros and other instruments that can be purchased, but considering the quality that most pedal steel players demand, we steelers are getting a deal at any builder's retail price. I can think of one or two brands that would not be considered a quality crafted pedal steel by today's standards, but those are few. I have to say that we steel players are a bit spoiled when it comes to pricing, and I believe that it stems from the days when certain builders gave guitars to anyone with a road gig, (I was certainly one of those). As we look into the future of pedal steel guitar, we must realize that to get the quality instrument we want we will have to be willing to pay more for it than we do for a big screen T.V.

------------------
The Steel Dr.
Johnny Cox P.S.D.
MSA Customer Service
www.msapedalsteels.com
www.thetimejumpers.com

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 1 Jun 2003 12:53 pm

A Steinway grand piano costs $62,500. And, it definately has fewer pedals.

Rick

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 1 Jun 2003 1:13 pm

The mandolin he was playing in church this morning retails at $11,000.00 and he is getting one built that sells for $14,000.00.

What,? the $11,000.00 mandolin didn't sound good enough?

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 1 Jun 2003 1:27 pm

It is obvious to me that it takes much more labor, materials and craftmanship to build a pedal steel that it does a mandolin.

Sorry Johnny, but I must disagree with this statement. More materials - yes, but more labor and craftsmanship - no way!

As a former builder, and having worked for two other builders, a pedal steel is mainly machined parts assembled to (usually) a wooden body. The parts are not complex and require no special craftsmanship, other than knowing how to program or run the machine that makes them. Likewise, assembling the parts requires no special skills, other than the basic "insert tab A into slot B".

Anyone with a few shop machines and tools could build a pedal steel quite comparable to any other on the market. On the other hand, mandolins or any acoustic instrument require intimate knowledge and experience of woods, sound waves, acoustics, etc., etc. This kind of craftsmanship is well beyond most if not all pedal steel builders, and the reason that most good acoustic instruments cost much more than pedal steels.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 1 Jun 2003 2:15 pm

I have played a 1929 Lloyd Loar F-5 mandolin considiered one of the best ever made,
and several from the 30's, and one worth well over $35,000.
I have friends who are repairmen of the highest order for old instruments.

And a few that are doing the best they can to make instuments at this level of quaility.
It is VERY far from an machinists or assemblers job.
It is increadibly time consuming and requiers a massive amount of knowledge and technique coupled with that illusive artistry and luck.
$14,000 for a mandolin.. not a surpise.

I have played a NEW contrebasse valued at
125,000ff or about $20,000 It was awesome and played like a dream.
I have played a 1755 contrebass that made it seem like a toy...$155,000 (and they let me play it too).

I can't find an acoustic bass in France I like for under $6-7,000. And that still wasn't that good. So I imported my '54 Kay.
Still not killer, but I like it.

My 6 string electric bass can't be replaced for less than $8,000 now... and a years wait minimum.
That's not what I paid... but that was then, and it wasn't cheap then.

So a new steel for $6,000 with all the tricks.. not so bad in comparison.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 01 June 2003 at 03:21 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 1 Jun 2003 3:11 pm

And a Bosendorfer Imperial Concert Grand piano can be had for a little over $75,000! 'Course, there's people out there paying $5,000 for Les Pauls, and Fender Telecasters, too. These guitars may be worth that to <i<>someone, but when you consider what you're getting, I'm really amazed what people pay for them. These are mass-produced, production-line instruments. (Most electric guitars probably took less than an hour to build.)

Now with a pedal steel, you really are getting a deal. It takes many hours of assembly time, plus as much (or more) set-up time. That's why no major guitar manufacturer will even touch pedal steels. They know there's not enough market to make any money.

Thirty-five years ago, a good pedal steel cost about $1,500. Today, you can get a pretty good one for a little over twice that. The same thirty-five years ago, a good car was about four grand. A "comparable" car today will cost four to five times as much (and be about worthless in 15 years.) I can't imagine any steel made today losing more than half it's value in the same amount of time.

Like I said...they're a bargain.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 1 Jun 2003 3:26 pm

These instruments may or may not be the easiest things to build but is it in the budget of your run-of-the-mill musician? The comparison only tells me these things are hard to afford for the working picker out here. My first instrument was the drums and they're not cheap not to mention the cymbals and cases that go with them and then there's the truck or van to transport them but I can't justify spending the kind of money I see on todays steel guitars and certainly not a mandolin. What is the average yearly salary for the average working musician? If you're making $100,000 a year then go out there and buy you a 6 or $7000 guitar but I doubt many of us are making those kind of bucks. How about this? Lloyd Green has the guitar he got new in 1973 and still uses it and I doubt he buys another one or needs it. He can get the job done without the expense. What is the incentive to spend that kind of money on any guitar when you can go out and buy a pretty good used guitar for $2000 or under and do the same job?[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 01 June 2003 at 04:27 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 1 Jun 2003 4:10 pm

Well here it is "simply" IMHO:

Pedal Steel Guitar was the "Hula Hoop" of the ten years following Urban Cowboy.

For every ten that were bought, there are nine that never really got played much. Probably seven of these are up for sale at less than half what people paid for them. Darn near unused. Just over a grand is the "going price" from an easily found private party. Double that from a dealer.

There ARE plenty of the Finest Steel Guitars being manufactured nowadays, but they will cost 5000 bucks to start. In line with other instruments that didn't experience such a "rush".

Astute dealers stock and sell used guitars. Sho Bud,Emmons, Marlen, MSA, Zumsteel, Franklin, Sierra, ZB, Mullen, and others are available realtively unused. Fine guitars. A grand and a half is the going price for a PSG that will last a pro player a lifetime. I paid $600 for a new Pro III Sho Bud in 78 from a music store, and I've played it on a few thousand jobs, and have no thought of upgrading.

Lloyd Green still plays his LDG Sho~Bud from what I've heard.. No flies on his axe. See 'em all the time on the Opry. (Pre 70s Teles too like the one I got offered yesterday for 500$).

Manufacturers sell the best of them for $5000 and up. People buy them. There's darn sure no doubt that they are "state of the art".

Should they still be making them., Hell yes!

Are the companies making a huge "gouge" on them? Well, honestly, I, through research have found that precision, non-wood bodies could be jobbed out rom the PacRim for about half what a finely selected and finished wood cabinet would cost. Of course with no loss in quality of "tone" (BBWWWAhahaha) and a gain in "uniformity". (Anybody with internet service can find this out if they know what jobbers to query.)

Even with that "possibility", I don't think the "profit margin" is out of line. Tooling, Labor, Marketing, QC, Trucking, Lawyers, Accountants, Consultants, Advertising, Tithing,etc. nowadays cost as much or more than they ever did.

"Profit" is NOT one of the Seven Deadly Sins. No shame in it. No need for Forgiveness.

The "New Buyer" can, with no self deprecation, look for and find a lightly used one if they want a fine guitar to play at a low price. To think that it is otherwise is IMHO, self delusion.

If they want a "Modern Masterpiece", they buy a new one. No doubt that the Emmons', Fessys Fulawkas, MSAs, Carters, Franklins, Williams' et al definitely are. I'm tempted myself sometimes.

My friend's mom got mad at having to dust it all the time and sold their family's Steinway Baby Grand for $6 hundred bucks one day in '87 while Mr Johnson was at work. He was a little steamed...

A previous boss of mine showed me his late wife's CF Martin 4 string banjo that he paid over 3 grand for during the height of the Mickey Finn banjo craze. I didn't have the heart to tell him that it's not worth 10 times that 40 years later like he thought... They go for 3 grand all day long on Ebay.

Anyhow, that's just the way I see it.

It really isn't as simple as you put it.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 01 June 2003 at 05:44 PM.]

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 1 Jun 2003 4:46 pm

The price of a pedal steel I can understand,BUT the price of some of the steel toys I can't. The Match Bro, that price I will never understand. Joe

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 1 Jun 2003 5:10 pm

Joe, I agree with you on the toys. It seems that if it is for steel guitar, the toy makers take advantage. I would like to see a breakdown on the cost of building a matchbro. Or how many bucks worth of parts in a Hilton pedal? I worked in a music store years ago and almost everything we sold was marked up 100%. I have got to the point of just using what I absolutely need, and not buying something because Buddy or John or Hal uses them. Using that thinking I never had to drop a ton of money for a pro-fex, digital amp, of which most players ever only mike one side even though it's stereo, or twin speakers. I can see spending the money for the guitar, mainly because a guitar will last a long time. Example: Sho-Bud Pro-ll's.

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1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 1 Jun 2003 5:48 pm

>>Prices for these pianos vary greatly from $5000 dollars for a used, good condition Japanese or Korean piano to over $150,000 for a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand (9'6"). Specialty grands can go for even more. A Yamaha Pro2000, which there are only three of in the world costs $333,000 while recently, a vintage 8'6" Steinway Model D with the most intricate wood carvings and artistry went on auction for about $2,000,000. Yes, you read that right! << from a piano site...

It takes 3 years to manufacture an Imperial grand. I once saw Don Preston accidently spill a beer into a 7' Bosendorfer, that only cost $72,000. There was a collective inhale from the audience that vacuumed all the oxygen out of the room.

Want to hear my 1893 Steinway D story where the "grey market" Mercedes dealer had his crew muscle it around with a forklift, tore off all the moulding and split the top in half. I bought the "carcass" for $7000 in 1983. I spent another $5k to have it restored, althought they couldn't restore the woodwork, only the legs are carved, there's a few mil out the window...damn
[This message was edited by chas smith on 01 June 2003 at 06:48 PM.][This message was edited by chas smith on 01 June 2003 at 06:54 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 1 Jun 2003 6:04 pm

Back when I got my first new Franklin steel I asked my girlfriend who builds furniture and makes jewelry to look it over and give me an estimate on what it should cost. She spent some time going over the steel and came up with S15,000.00.

Bob

Kurt Graber · Post by **Kurt Graber** » 1 Jun 2003 6:55 pm

Bob, when you marry em, the price goes way down. My wife would easily take $100 for my D10 Zum and feel she got a bargain! Now, don't you guys go gettin any ideas.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 1 Jun 2003 7:27 pm

Here's another reason I won't be buying a $6000 guitar anytime soon. I've got a 71 Emmons p/p birdseye maple body guitar with aluminum necks 9/8. The guitar has about every change known to man except for maybe the King Kong pedal and has just been refinished to look better than it ever did new and with a tweed case. This machine hums to say the least in anybodys book. I don't have anything near $6000 in it. If I sold it ( and I don't plan to) I wouldn't ask a dime under $3000 and maybe more if I could get it. It's got looks, tone, and more changes than any 8/5 guitar so why buy a new one of anybodys? I just haven't heard a guitar to date I thought beat the tone of these old Emmons guitars and a lot of Sho-Buds too. Talk about looks, it's hard to beat the looks on them Buds and they're selling for peanuts around here. It seems that unless Lloyd Green or Pete Drake owned one they're not worth much. I think the bargains in steel guitars are finding an old guitar not beat up and setting it up the way you want it and just play it for what it's worth. I played an Emmons p/p for 13 years and spent $300 on it the whole time getting it set up, adding 1 knee lever and making a couple of minor changes in the set-up as time went by. I played the guitar on average 4 to 6 nights a week.
Why would I buy a $6000 guitar to get smoked up in a bar when I can do it so much cheaper and still get the job done? Most of us don't play the Opry or Carnegie Hall and might have a beer spilled on our guitar by a customer. Come to think of it, I see a lot of older guitars on the Opry stage.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 1 Jun 2003 9:49 pm

I rebuilt a basket Professional that was split in half when I got it. I kept the birdcage changer and designed and fabricated everything else under the guitar with the addition of needle roller bearings and geared reverses. I spent around 200 hrs of labor. A reasonable rate in Los Angeles for that kind of stuff would have been $100/hr.

Prototype is always more expensive than production line.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 2 Jun 2003 3:38 am

I agree with Johnny up to a point - $3000 to $4000 is a reasonably small amount for a professional instrument when compared to what players of other instruments have to pay for the very best.

I do, however, feel that, once initial tooling has been established, steel guitar-builders simply become assemblers of a large number of machined parts - it's hard to compare this to the work of a master luthier, however good we feel that our Emmons, Zums (or MSAs) are...

D Schubert · Post by **D Schubert** » 2 Jun 2003 4:57 am

It's all tied to supply and demand in the end, not to the cost of production. You can read it in any marketing textbook, or see it firsthand anywhere horses are traded. And as wonderful as new top-of-the-line PSG's and guitars and mandolins may be, I'll continue shopping for oldies -- not because I'm cheap, but I'm getting too #$%@&* old to break in brand-new instruments.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 Jun 2003 6:53 am

A $1,500 pedal steel in 1972 would cost $6,466 today, according to the consumer price index.
http://www.cjr.org/database/converter_response.asp?cent=19&dec=7&year=2&amount=1%2C500&year_to=2002&submit=convert

So I would say there have been substantial reductions in costs (and possibly profit margins) over the years, and all but the most expensive PSGs today are bargains, and the used ones are fantastic bargains.

Considering the mechanics, electronics, woodworking, and finish, a PSG would seem to be somewhere between an electric 6-string and a piano in difficulty of manufacture, and that's about where the costs fall. The lack of a large market prevents PSG manufacture from taking much advantage of economies of scale in mass production. That seems to be compensated by the manufacturers taking very small profits - making PSGs seems to be a labor or love that nobody expects to get rich off of.

The biggest unique design challenges in a steel are the changer and bellcranks, which are strictly mechanical, and not a particularly high level of complication and precision. A 6-string has nothing to compare with that. About the biggest challenge in an electric 6-string is laying nice even frets; whereas the frets are painted, stamped or molded on PSGs, so even fret heights and fretboard finish are not an issue. Acoustic 6-strings require more finesse in the woodwork than electric 6-strings and PSGs, but they don't have the electronics.

The action mechanism between piano keys and the hammers is a little more mechanically complicated than a PSG changer, and a piano has 88 keys, not 10 or 20. And of course pianos are much bigger and have a lot more wood. So they cost a good bit more.

I think the biggest rip-offs today are resonator guitars. Even the very best resonators cost only a few bucks. The body is basically only a fancy shaped speaker cabinet, and the fret board and mechanics are trivial. It's fine if some people want to pay thousands for exotic woods, but it should be possible to mass produce something from common materials that sounds just as good for a few hundred bucks. Regal has almost got it, but there is something lacking in the sound. But I think that is just poor design. They need to make a better copy of the good sounding American resonator guitars. Certainly the workmanship materials and finish of the Regals is adequate. Now if we could just get them to make a knock-off of the new MSAs...

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 2 Jun 2003 7:35 am

Very interesting responses. I must say that some are down playing the difficulty in building a PSG. Yes, once the tooling is establisted it remains the same. But steel builders also have to know about acoustics, resonance and the proper materials to make it sound and play well. Not only that,
almost every pedal setup is different and these days are getting more complicated.

I know from doing set ups and repairs that a 9 + 9 takes much more time and thought than a 8 + 5. Steel guitars,for the most part are still custom instruments. Very few steel players that have been playing for sometime can run down to the corner music store and find a PSG with his particular setup.
All pianos, guitars, mandolins ect. are tuned the same. Those players can pick up any of those instruments and start playing. Try that with a PSG.

------------------
The Steel Dr.
Johnny Cox P.S.D.
MSA Customer Service
www.msapedalsteels.com
www.thetimejumpers.com

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 2 Jun 2003 7:39 am

Those players can pick up any of those instruments and start playing. Try that with a PSG.

Well, I've seen YOU do it several times!

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » 2 Jun 2003 7:40 am

Johnny
Not sure if I can add anything that
has not been posted, however I will
say that as long as the demand for
6,000 guitars is up, we won't see
much change. I would say that smaller
one and two man shops would be glad
to build 20/25 guitars a year and sell
them for 2500.00 - 3000.00.
This could be part time income with
little overhead except tooling cost.
This has to impact the older guitar
builders.
The cost of workers comp for a company
with 5/8 employees could be 3000.00 a
month easily not counting hospitalization
if its provided.
Other guitar builders like Martin, Gibson
Taylor etc...realized this years ago. They still have the 5,000.00 guitars and to get
the mid/low income pickers they have very
affordable guitars for 1500.00
I'm not jealous of anyone with a 6000.00
guitar, by no means. My '75 Emmons is
all the guitar I could ever want.

------------------
Rick Johnson

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 2 Jun 2003 8:44 am

There is NO comparison in the workmanship, quality, or sound of a Regal resonator and Beard or Sheerhorns. That even goes for comparing Gibson Dobro brand and Beard and Sheerhorns. Regals are a garbage resonator, fit for student playing. They sound like tin and are made like cardboard. Real cheap.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 02 June 2003 at 09:44 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 2 Jun 2003 8:44 am

I know from doing set ups and repairs that a 9 + 9 takes much more time and thought than a 8 + 5.

I certainly agree with you there. When I built my own Dekley with 10&12, it took me forever to get it set up so everything was accessible and the pulls were balanced.

However, this applies to customizing a "standard" setup, which would add cost to any instrument, not just a pedal steel, so this isn't really pertinent to this discussion.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 2 Jun 2003 10:23 am

Thank you, Kevin. I am constantly amazed when guys spend the kind of bucks that are being tossed around here on steel stuff, and then BRAG about a Regal RD75, Quarterman cone, maple bridge, chrome rims, whatever, notwithstanding. Guys like Paul Beard, Tim Scheerhorn,and (my personal favorite) Ivan Guernsey--are scientists, craftsmen, AND artists. Not some sweatshop turning out cookie cutter pretend Resos. COLOR="#8e236b">[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 02 June 2003 at 11:24 AM.][This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 02 June 2003 at 11:24 AM.]

Earl Foote · Post by **Earl Foote** » 2 Jun 2003 10:37 am

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[This message was edited by Earl Foote on 02 June 2003 at 01:31 PM.]