My foray into "Uni-tarianism"...a report

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Geez, I never thought it would happen…

I have a student who is blessed with two beautiful U-12 Zum pedal steel guitars. Since up to this point I have had no real interest or experience on how to tune and play one of these animals, he decided he was gonna loan me the lesser of the two for awhile so I could better instruct him. As a dedicated double neck steeler for over 25 years I had my doubts if I could ever relate to the one-neck-does-all world, but after a couple weeks of fooling around on this thing, I have to honestly say that my doubts are starting to go away...at least for some purposes.

As I've said many times on the forum, I have 2 steels, a D10 and a D12. The D12 is the product of years of thinking, tinkering and experimenting, trying to find my own ultimate extended copedants to satisfy my jazzier leanings. My D10 is a very basic setup that I've used for 99.9% of my professional gigging life....After playing this Uni for just a couple days, I'm reasonably sure that I could do ANY gig that I use my D10 on! I'm also quite sure that there is still NO way that I could ever replace the D12's huge and unique capabilities with a U12.

But now I'm thinking if I ever tour again, an ultra light universal just might be the way to go. Who'da thunk?

The tuning on this borrowed axe is a very basic Newman-esque E9/B6 copendant, so I'm sure there are more elaborate uni setups out there. So far, it's the C6 side of this setup that leaves me a little unexcited. (I'd really like to sit down with Reece's and Carl Dixon's tunings for a few days to see what they're like.) One thing I was kind've amazed at though was how fast I got use to NOT having my beloved D note, and NOBODY loves that note in the tuning more the me! Most of the standard things that most E9 players use that for are on there, but it's a lot of the non standard things that I use it for that I havn't found.....yet.

Of course there really is an entire other "zone" between the 2 tunings that is sorta cool, so we'll see what I figure out in the next couple weeks with that. Too bad this steel is too nice to take to any of my funky gigs.

More later.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I can relate. I recently setup the E9th neck on my D-12 as a Universal, and I had a similar experience... surprised I don't miss the D string and "the zone" has plenty in there. As you said, if anything lacks it is in the B6th, it's not as complete as the other C6th neck was, but for me it's perfect as I don't play C6th enough to have any aspirations to trying to be another Chalker. I like the 6th tunings for fatter chords, western swing sounds etc.

I'm going to take advantage of this thread to thank Larry Bell, something I've meant to do but thus far neglected..... Larry's website has so much great information about the Universal setup, its' percieved pros and cons, and reading Larry's info helped me make the decision to try the U-12 setup. Mine is very basic, but I really like it an plan to keep it. Thanks Larry.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Thanks for the kind words, Jim. That's why I put that stuff up there. I've been wrestling with this stuff for almost 30 years and thought others might like to hear how I approach it.

I am curious. What on C6 do you feel is missing? I've played every C6 instrumental off the Black Album (and a lot of other traditional C6 stuff) with a pretty basic universal setup. Inquiring minds want to . . . er . . . inquire.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Rick---I took note when you mentioned earlier that you would be messing with this borrowed U-12. Having heard and been slain by your recordings, I was looking forward to reading your impressions and I still await more of these impressions as you continue this foray. I have no interest in feeling validated by someone else's experience and I don't consider myself an advocate of the uni tuning. Just a user.
And dittos on the kudos to Larry. I've said it before and I'll say it again--nothing better prepared me to proceed with (some) confidence in choosing to go to U-12 than your tutorial on the subject and I was even able to get started with what I consider an improvement on the standard Uni by ordering my Carter with the "Bell" mod--moving P6 to a lever, thus even further integrating the E9 and the B6.

OH yeah, Rick--I almost forgot---two words:
Lush Life. You promised! (Well not exactly but you did mention it).

[This message was edited by Jon Light on 04 January 2005 at 02:03 PM.]

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Larry, when I said the B6th lacks a bit in comparison to the C6th neck on a D10 or D12, I was referring to the setup that I have at present. My steel has 6 pedals and only 4 knees, and in its' current state the B6th side isn't as complete as something like Chalker's C6th neck setup, or probably most other really serious C6th guys' copedants. I hope to add some kneelevers in the near future to get a little more out of the B6th side, but even as-is I really like having the two tunings on the same neck.

Buddy Blackmon · From: Athens, Georgia, USA

If Uni E9/B6 is the deal, then why isn't Emmons still doing it (saying this with tongue firmly planted in cheek)???

Bill C. Buntin · From: Cleburne TX

Keep on talking guys. I'm listening. Been on the fence now for awhile. About to fall over on the Uni side. Been had the hots for a 12 string for awhile now.

Larry,

I too have wondered if the E9/B6 setup lacks something on the 6th side of things. I'm glad to hear you say that you find the 6th plenty adequate. So I'm not ruling out the Newman setup, which I really like from the studying I've done.

However, I've been wanting something to take my mind away from Hard Country stuff and with that E neck sitting there I just can't seem to resist to go for something familiar when I do take a job with the D10.

So for my thinking I'm more inclined to think I'll go for a Bb6 setup. I'm just wondering if that will force me to lean more toward the 6th side on most of the playing. Thats my intention anyway is to have a guitar that forces me more toward the 6th tuning.

Any suggestions in this area would sure be welcome, you guys are great.

Time to go back and see Reece maybe.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I just wanted to also say thanks to Larry for putting so much thought provocing info on his website. Very cool Larry!

Like I've said before, this is a temporary thing for me...at least for the time being. The last thing I can afford right now is another steel. But getting to actually sit down at this borrowed axe has got the old wheels turning again. There's a couple sorta oddball changes that I've come up with on my D12 that I now don't want to do without. I'm really wondering if it's gonna be possible to implement them on a U12 instrument.

One thing on the Newman setup that I really don't like too much is the "Hold It" pedals right next to each other.(i.e. traditional C6 pedals 5&8 placed at 4&5 on the Uni) I've always felt they canceled out alot of combinations when positioned like that, just for the sake of less foot movement. Is there another reason for them being like that I might've overlooked?

As far as finding cool "hidden" things on any tuning goes, mysterious and wonderful things are still revealing themselves to me all the time, even on the most basic E9 3+2 after all these years.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Just for a bit of clarification, FWIW
I do not play the Newman pedal configuration and never liked that solution. Instead, I removed P6 from the middle of the 'stack' and put only E to D on an easily accessible lever. This affords several advantages from my perspective. You can combine P6 more easily with other pedals. Two feet are not required for P5+7 (they're next to each other) or even P5+6+7. AND the D note is there TWO ways -- either lowering the E on 8 to D or raising 9 from B to D. Those advantages weigh very heavily in my decision to keep that setup for more than 25 years. And, believe me, if I saw a compelling reason to change, I would.

I realize that a heavyweight jazz guy like Rick may see limitations. It is true that you get used to what you have and a fully loaded D-12 just has more places to hang stuff. But the interplay with the E9 pedals -- not for a country sound -- for the musical combinations offered -- is worth its weight in gold. Glad you're getting a grin out of it, Rick.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Hey Larry...I already knew that your setup(s)was different from the basic Newman U12. I really like your idea of moving the pedal 6 to a knee. (I was never a fan of that on regular C6, but on a U12 I think it's probably the way I'd go too.)

One of the things I found that I did on my D12 was to kind've merge the two tunings together anyway. For instance, I raise both E's to F on my C6, making it very much like an open universal tuning. A reverse of your pivotal E's to D# lever. I think you gotta have open sounding majors, maj9's, sus 4's, etc. to play more modern,less swing era voicings for jazz.
I always thought that those voicings that come easily on E9 need to be integrated into C6 to get it away from 6th and alt-7 heavy harmonies. Bill Evans woulda done it that way. Maybe he would've played a U12 if he played steel?

Bill C. Buntin · From: Cleburne TX

It has taken a long time for me to realize that a person must stop thinking either E9 or B6 side of things. What you said Larry about using the pedals normally associated with E9 "Not for country" but for "musical combinations offered". Reece essentially says the same thing in his article about the evolution of tunings in regard to how a universal player has to think while playing. I always thought that Universal players thought the way most double neck players think. In that a particular tune either would call for commercial country sounds or it might just be begging for swingy 6th type stuff. Hence I figured they picked a "side" to play in and played in it during that song. Turns out I've been wrong in my thinking. I just read Reece's article yet again and realize he's saying that the universal tuning, regardless of what its roots are is just that, "Universal" There really shouldn't be a 9th or 6th side to anything. It should just "BE", like a piano or any other musical instrument capable of producing beautiful music. For us, with ANY combination of pedals and knee levers. "WHEW". Makes me want a 12 string all the more now.

Thanks Larry too for the info on your website. Its really helping me start to grasp what universal is really all about. I've got alot more study and reading to do. Its like looking at a multi dimensional picture. Trying to take what I know about E9 and C6 seperately and THINK about melding the two together into one set of skills or one repertoire. Gonna take some time.

Thanks ya'll.

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

I've got an Emmons S12 p/p set up as a basic "uni (7p, 4k) and and Emmons D10 p/p (8p 5k). I like 'em both cause they both do what they're 'sposta do...make music.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Rick said

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Glenn...do you switch between your D10 and your U12 often? Any mental adjustment period? I'm thinking even if I do ever get a uni, I'll never give up my roots on double necks.

David Doggett · Posted 5 Jan 2005 11:16 am

A couple thoughts about knee levers on a uni. On the left knee, you can put pretty much anything you have on a D10 C6, simply by putting in a center cluster. However, it's hard to move from cluster to cluster while playing. So adding a center cluster to some extent interferes with the "one tuning" way of playing and thinking. Larry has as many as 6 levers in a single cluster. That helps solve the problem, but never having tried that, it's hard for me to imagine how you work five or six levers in a single cluster. But if you can put 6 levers in a single cluster on a uni, you can do the same on a D10, even on both clusters. So you can always get more left knee levers on a D10, unless you use two clusters on a uni and give up some of the "one tuning" potential.

The right knee is even more of a problem on a uni. Many D10s have the two right knee levers going to both necks, for a total of 4 effective levers. Not only can you not do that on a uni, but many of us have the E lower lever (that gives the 6th tuning) on the right knee. That means this knee is pinned to that one lever, and cannot work another lever in the 6th tuning. If you put the E lower on the left knee, it doesn't solve the problem. Then you have that knee pinned from using the other levers there, although maybe you could work a vertical in combination. You can use an E lower lock, but then you loose the "one tuning" idea completely. Any way you look at it, it is hard to get all the 6th neck levers on a uni that you can easily get on a D10.

On the E9 side of a uni, you have to dedicate one lever to getting the low D that is lost on the 9th string. That means one less E9 lever than you get on a D10.

The lever to get a D to replace the missing 9th string of E9 does double duty of course. It provides the D in E9, but also is the same as pedal 6 on C6. Also, C6 pedal 4 is not needed on a uni. So this frees up two additional pedals in B6. But unless you give up the one-tuning concept and use a center left knee cluster, you can't reach pedals 7 and 8, much less a potential 9, on a uni. Besides, knee levers are faster and easier to use than pedals. So I'm not sure the lever-pedal tradeoff is so great.

All that being said, I'm still prefering my uni at the moment. Whatever I am missing in extra levers, I get so much more by having the combined single tuning available all the time. But my 6th neck playing is rudimentary. I mostly play like it is a lap steel, but use the D lever (C6 pedal 6) a lot. As I want to learn more on B6, I am worried that the knee lever problems above will limit me more than a double-neck would. But my dilema is that I love the extra low strings on E9 so much, I could never give them up (tried extended E9 and hated it - lower grips are too complicated).

What do you think, Larry, Rick?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

One thing I see is the fact that somethings can do double duty on a UNI, they are just as valid in E9 mind space as C6.

I think for me it will be a case of not thinking EITHER space, but it's OWN space.

I really am jonesing for a Bb6 like David Wrights.
the 20 minutes I spent on it was like and hour on a regular Uni,.
And I found MORE stuff I wanted,
and really feel I only cracked the surface.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

I agree that the e9/B6 universal tuning is a great all round tuning, as Larry Bell has shown so well in his own playing.

But just for a minute, let us think the opposite way as Reece's original Bb6, David Wrights,Jr. Knight, Bill Braddy, Bud Carter , Tom Morrell,and a few others have played Bb6. These are all GREAT players.

Instead of dropping the E's to go in the 6th mode, you tune them open D#, THen RAise them to E for the E9 mode effects. So you are tuned to B6 open.

If Reece would have used B6 or even A6 as the open tuning, I think a lot more guys would have used it. Expecially A6 as they were more used to A6 from years back. Then it would be the C# to D lever.

I have used these tunings and they are great and versatile for all kinds of music.

The only reason I didn't stick to them when I was playing professionally, was I was so used to my e6th tuning and D10's that I couldn't take the time learn to change and lose work.
Now Though,I play a S12 E6-E9-E13th tuning on my MSA Millenium.

And I reckon that is one of the reasons why the Greats like Buddy, didn't change. Why should they? They were on top, making money and playing just great with their D10's

There is a ton of Music in Reece's tuning that would take days to explain. Especially with 4 picks instead of three. There are so many combinations with 4 picks that just isn't complete with 3 picks....

If I was 30years younger,I would setup my S12 with E9/B6, or B6/E9. as the B is the fifth of E and easy to related to. Like in E9, G is on the 3rd fret, D is the 5th of G, so when you lower those E's to D#, then the 3rd fret is D, the 8th fret is G and the 10th fret is A.
We are just talking basic tonic positions, right now.. Out of time right now...al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

Rick,

I do switch between the two. For many years I played an Emmons p/p S10 (E9th) guitar and went to a Sierra S14 "uni". I played the Sierra for about 10 years. Two years ago I decided to get back to the Emmons p/p sound and bought my S12 "uni" from forumite, Tommy Cass. Then, in just the opposite of your situation, I decided to find out what all the fuss about D10's was about

and bought my first and only D10 from forumite Chuck McGill (Incidently, both Tommy and Chuck were great to do business with and recommend purchases from either one).

As for switching between the two, they have numerous similarities and a few differences in set-ups. The similarities are:

Pedals 1,2,3 (Emmons) 5,6 and 7 (standard 6th) plus the LKL which raises the E's to F and LKV which lowers strings 5 and 10 from B to Bb on D10 (string 5 only on S12).

The differences are: E's to Eb (LKL on D10) and (RKR on S12 ); "Boowah" (P8 on D10) and (P4 on S12); RKL (D10) raises strings 1 and 7 F# to G on E9th and lowers string 3 C to B on C6th. RKL (S12) lowers string 2 D# to C# (no half-stop) and string 8 E to D; The RKR on the D10 lowers string 2 D#-D-C# with half-stop and string 9 D to C# on E9th and raises string 4 A to Bb on C6th.

By playing them both regularly I am able to keep the differences mentally manageable. One interesting observation I've had; although the B6 portion on the "uni" and the C6th on the D10 are essentially the same, I've discovered licks and patterns playing the C6th that went unnoticed on the "uni". It's quite possible the same thing would have occurrred in the opposite situation. Anyway, they're both fun to play, but the D10 goes to gigs cause it's a beautiful natural lacquer finish and I like to show it off.

I believe forumite Scott Henderson plays both a D10 and an S12 "uni", too. He may concur with my experience.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 05 January 2005 at 12:39 PM.]

George Macdonald · From: Vancouver Island BC Canada

When I ordered a new MSA universal in 1974, Reese set it up with B6th as the open tuning. My RR lever raises 4 and 8 to E puting me in E9th. My RL lever lowers 4 and 8 to D and raises my outside Eb to E. [The normal 6th pedal] Pedal one is my "Franklin" pedal followed by A, B, and C and then pedals 7, 5, and 8 [on a regular C6th] I have pedal 4 in the 8th possition as it is my least used. I have 4 levers on the left knee with all the other changes usually associated with E9th. I have a new Carter now with the same basic set up I have had for 30 years [with the added newer pulls for E9th] I do play more music in the E9th style but I find very comfortable to approach it from the open B6th tuning. My set up is fairly similar to Larry Bell's and Mike Perlowin's except my base is B6th.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

George....By having to raise your 4 & 8 strings up to E, do you B6 guys have an equivilant to the E to F lever on the E9 side?

George Macdonald · From: Vancouver Island BC Canada

Rick, Yes I raise my E's to F on the LL knee and to F# with my "C" pedal. I have all the "normal" E9th changes and when I want to lower my E's I just relaxe my right knee to the middle position. One difference is, that my first four strings are: Eb, G# F#, and Eb The Eb is my only "outside" string. The F# that is one of the two outside strings on a regular E9th is inside my B6th tuning. This is not a problem for me, [until I sit down at a regular E9th, ha.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Love the uni threads!
If you think the B6 is lacking, try an experimant... string it up with the first 3 strings D#, G#, F#.
Now 2-5 match 6-9, and your D# is on top for both E9/B6.
Fun stuff... and plenty o' ways to "skin the cat" for eveybody!

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