Yet another question about 3rd string breakeage

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

One thing I've never heard, is there a consensus of exactly WHERE the #@&$#* 3rd string breaks?
Mine always breaks in exactly the same spot...directly over the raise-roller thing (what do we call that anyway?), leaving a stub about 1 1/2" long.
To make matters worse, on my Sierra guitar, the dang stub falls down into the changer mechanism unless I block it with a piece of foam stuffed into the space.
Is this the spot where they break for everybody?

[This message was edited by Tony Palmer on 30 December 2004 at 08:03 AM.]

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

Tony, it sounds like you may have a rough spot on that roller. With the string off, check it for smoothness. It could possibly be the strings you are using. I have had good luck with Jagwire strings purchased through the forum....JD

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Tony; yes that is the most frequent spot of string breakage; is the top of the finger, as that is where most of the tension to pull the string happens. You can reduce the amount breakage by a few techniques. As John just said: make sure there is no worn spot;burr;groove..etc. on top of the finger. Get you some scotch-brite and rub with the diameter of the finger till smooth; than use either mothers mag and chrome polish or simichrome to polish the top of the finger. Also make sure there is at least 5 wraps on the tuning post; as that will stabilize that end of the string much more and reduce the amount of tension it takes the finger to pull. And make sure the roller on the roller bride; rolls freely. Also make sure underneath; where the finger is pulled from; that the rod is straight in line and doesn't bend or flex to pull and that reduces friction on the pull. And as John said; the Jagwire string is a very high quality wire and will not break down as soon as most; and will hold it's tuning and tone much longer than most.
Have fun.
Ricky

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

Ricky, I am familiar with the possibility of rough spots on the finger roller and have sanded it down.
I have not heard much about the effect of the pedal rod, though.
Too tight, short travel, long travel, a little play, etc......how would all these things matter to breaking a third string?
Care to elaborate?

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Are you breaking strings very often? If not, then the best thing you can do is keep a fresh string on there and don't wait for it to break.

Pretty cheap insurance!

Lee, from South Texas

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Tony; everything in the mechanical line, factors in on the tension it takes to pull a string. If there is flex in the rod from the puller point to the finger; that adds tension. Sure the string moves the same distance; but the amount of tension and friction it takes to move it there; adds pressure or not to the string. If you have short travel; than you will have more tension and visa versa. But some don't like a long throw; so you have to come up with the best medium for you and live with what ya got. I don't like any play in my pedals/knees...I like it to go when I touch it; and that adds to a better tuning stability as parts are now not slaming open and shut(get my drift?). But if you have No slack that you better have proper gauging and the stops dead perfect; as why many suggest slack; for tuning inperfections sharp or flat; but I'm speaking of my own steel guitar.
The finger has pivots that are pulled and either pivots to pull or pivots to release; and we are speaking of the pull; so if the release section(lower section) is very secure(the lower spring nice and tight); than the raise will happen much more freely and smooth and that negates to less tension.
I can go on and on....but I have to get to work...ha..but that should hold you over for a while. Just try and think: what is the easiest point from A to B..
Ricky

Jim Bates · From: Alvin, Texas, USA

Yes, ALL brands of strings will break, eventually. For me, the .011 breaks the most, then the .017 (B to C#), and even once in a while the .038 (B to C#). All broke at the bridge end.

I agree with Lee B.: keep a fresh one on the G# to A (.011, .0115 or .012, your preference) to avoid having that string break in the middle of your solo.

Thanx,
Jim

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Is there any particular orientation of the little brass ferrule and string wrap that one should pay attention to? seems to me this has been mentioned elsewhere but I can't find it.

David Doggett · Posted 30 Dec 2004 2:55 pm

Yep, on all four brands of pedal steel I have owned, the 3rd string always breaks right at the top of the changer roller. While all of Ricky's causes can surely hasten the breakage, I think the main reason is because that is where the string bends. Take a coat hanger. Bend it back and forth a bunch of times. What happens? The 3rd string breaks most because it is the smallest gauge. It is a marginal case. It really wants a shorter neck and less tension, but then the lower strings would go thunk. The 0.0115 Jagwire string lasts a little longer than anything else I've tried. You just gotta change that one string before every gig. The 0.017 on the 5th string breaks next most often. Even though it is a bigger string, it is a whole-step pull that is used a lot. What's the point of having those pedals if you don't mash them like crazy?

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

I just had a thought...if the string always breaks in the same spot, what if we annealed the string by heating it at that spot?
A Bic lighter for less than a minute would get the metal red hot at that point, taking the temper out of it, and if it is now softer, perhaps it wouldn't break.
??

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

2 parts:

part 1...
As mentioned it is most common for the string to break right over the roller or extremely close..this is not to be confused with a problem with the Steel alhough a small burr will cause excessive breakage as mentioned. But the primary reason for breakage is use.

Some folks can go months, some folks can go weeks..some days..it just depends on what the heck you are playing, practicing.. whatever .

I am breaking a 5th and 3rd probably every two weeks..but it is totally due to excessive practice of the exact same phrases over and over and over daily.

OK part 2

how do you prevent the ball end from dropping into the changer? easy..place a small piece of foam in the open area behind the roller.like in the photo.. no more ball ends in the changer for me...

And who said we cannot invent anymore stuff for this Instrument ?

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 31 December 2004 at 01:24 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Try using a .012 gauge for the 3rd string. I find that I can get more life and a better tone out of a little heavier string.
Erv

Russ Wever · From: Kansas City

regarding Erv's suggestion above about trying a .012 - probably one's first reaction is to think that a .012 would break sooner than an .011 because it, being a larger guage, would require more tension to bring it up to pitch.
This is true - however, a larger guage string requires LESS angular movement from the changer to raise it from it's 'no-pedal' pitch up to it's 'pedal-down' pitch. Therefore, the larger guage (.012) string is not being bent as far as is the smaller guage (.011) string, and so, is not internally fractured to the extent of the smaller string.
~Russ

Bill OConnor · From: Castle Rock, Washington, USA * R.I.P.

YOU CAN BUY A MAGNETIC STRIP WITH STICKUM ON THE BACK SIDE AT HOME DEPOT 5/8 WIDE IN A ROLL STICK IT ACROSS BEHIND WHERE THE BALL & STUB FLY OFF THEY ATTACH MOST EVERY TIME I ALSO CARRY A PENCIL MAGNET REACHES RIGHT INTO THE CHANGER. RUB THE SPOT EACH TIME ON THE CHANGER WITH 1200 GRIT PAPER KEEPS IT SMOOTH.FRIENDS AN I HAVE BEEN USING THIS A COUPLE OF YEARS IT WORKS

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Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I have found that a small drop of oil under the 3rdstring when it is changed cuts breakage way down. i've been doing it for 28 years and it works... bob

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Ditto to using the Jaguar strings. On my PP Emmons, I was getting about 4 to 6 hours out of a 3rd before breakage. After going to Jaguar, I have been playing an hour a day for 6 months now and it still hasn't broken! I also started putting a drop of oil on the string where it crosses the roller bridge. Maybe the oil is a bigger factor than the string brand, but I think not, based on other's experience with Jaguar. Try Jaguar if you are not already. Bob has them here on the Forum for sale.

Bill C. Buntin · From: Cleburne TX

What Erv and Russ said. A .012 works for me. Gene Fields originally suggested this to me about 11 years ago.

Sam White R.I.P. · From: Coventry, RI 02816

Tony make sure you turn the roller a little each time you have to replace a string that will help. Also they have a .11 1/2 gauge string now that a lot of the guys are using and they seem to have a lot of luck with them.I know you have been using Jag Wire.I have not broken a string on my New Emmons LaGrande III as of yet my freind that I bought it from put a .11 1/2 gauge string on it.I practice 3 to 4 time a day every day.
Sam White
Sam White

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

I agree with Bob, I have used trumpet valve oil all of my strings for years, when I change the string I put it right on that spot you have pictured above, and I oil them about once a week. I also highly recommend using the .012 guage string, Jeff Newman convinced me of that years ago and it works. I also recommend the Jagwire Strings, I have used them all, but these are the best I have ever used. I cannot remember when I broke a 3rd string, although I only play a little in church I use the steel to teach with every day & play with billions of my rhythm tracks, so its not like I don't use the guitar. Ask someone who knows me!! I am a 'Steel Nut'. Good luck with the advice your getting here from the great Forum Guys!!

Ernie Pollock http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

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Willis Vanderberg · From: Petoskey Mi

This may be nit picking, but it gets confusing when we call the changer fingers the " Roller Bridge ". The roller bridge is at the key head end of the guitar. ( assuming that is the proper name for it.)
I carry a small pen light and a set of surgical clamps in my seat to remove broken string ball ends. Now...if you are playing a keyless guitar then, is the roller bridge at the keyless, key head end ?
I have two LeGrande lll's ,a Emmons push pull, a MCI , and a ShoBud. I use JagWire stainless on all of them with a 011.5 on the third. I change them about every six weeks.I normally play about two hours a day.

gene brown · From: Bowie, Texas Montague

I have a Mullen Royal Precision D-10,and it breaks a 3rd. string pretty often,but it never falls out of sight.It is always in the machined slot at the end. I really like this feature. I was breaking strings pretty often,but I put more wraps on the key head,and it helped a lot.
Gene

David Doggett · Posted 31 Dec 2004 10:22 am

Willis, in keeping with standard guitar terminology, the rollers at the right (picking) end are bridge rollers, and the ones at the left (fretting) end are nut rollers. I would think those terms would remain the same regardles of which end the tuning mechanism is located at.

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Willis...that "thing" at the keyhead end is called the "roller-nut". (The "nut" is usually what the string support at the keyhead end of a guitar is called.) While "roller bridge" isn't really a good term, most would understand that to be the sort of "bridge" formed by the top of the changer, or the tops of the pulling fingers. (The "bridge" is usually the string support at the end opposite the keyhead.)

That's my2centavos.

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

I swear this is true: after reading the answers to this post, I put a 012 string on in place of 011 and it worked fine, but since I was playing New Year's eve, I didn't want to chance it and restrung it with an 011...which promptly broke as soon as I put in on!
I put on another 011, held my breath and it seemed to work so off to the gig I went. Last set, just after Sleepwalk was requested, I broke the 10th string!!!!
This is an insane instrument!!
(just in case you're wondering, yes I do change ALL my strings about once every other month and keep the 3rd no longer than once per month...and I play a Sierra keyless)
p.s.Albert Einstein's defintion of insanity: "When you continue to repeat over and over the same practice, hoping to get different results..... "

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