Tuning Vertical Knee Lever?

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

My vertical knee lever lowers my 5th string 'B' to 'A#' which is the common change I believe. I use the 'Newman' tuning chart but the offset it gives for 'A#' doesn't work for me. I think there must be diffent application for this change which might account for it. I use my vertical knee lever in conjunction with my 'A' & 'B' pedals to get a minor 6 chord. I tune the lever by ear to get an 'A#' offset which sounds sweet to me for those chords. If I tune the 'A#' to the Newman offset it doesn't sound right at all. Is this because the Newman offset is not intended for this pedal/lever combination? And if so, what are the other ways the 'B' to 'A#' change are used that sound in tune with the Newman offset? I did a search on this and came up empty handed although I'm sure Carl Dixon talked about this one time.

Bill C. Buntin · From: Cleburne TX

I have that change on my guitar and I tune it to 440. I'm not disputing Jeff's method, I'm just saying Bb 440 works perfect for me.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Bill, I tune my 5th string B to 440 and the B to Bb (A#) lower to 438 and it comes up great for me. I also use a .017 string for the B on my BMI guitar. On my old ShoBud I had to use a .018 in that position. Have a good 'un..JH

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Bill
It sounds like you tuned the A# but not the C natural that you use in the open Am6 chord. There are different ways to tune that C note depending on what kind of guitar you have.

Jon Jaffe · From: Austin, Texas

Bill, to my knowledge Jeff posted two editions of tempered tunings for Universal. The first (see below) was based on E=440. As you can see A# was 338 hz or 8cents flat.

The full image (3.5 mb and 300dpi) is here Click

The newer tuning published on the Jeffran College web site is based on E 442.5 and A# is 440.5 hz or 2cents sharp. They both work fine if your guitar has split tuning and your B string stays true true with various pulls.

All said, I tune it by ear and works well with my AB pedals pushed or E's flatted.

[This message was edited by Jon Jaffe on 04 January 2005 at 09:40 AM.]

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

Thanks for the input gentlemen. Bill and Jerry : I find the the Newman temperments work great for me with that one exception. And it doesn't really present a problem since I'm able to tweak it by ear so it sounds fine.....for the minor 6 chords that is. But since it seems unlikely that Jeff Newman was wrong I just figure there must be another use that I'm missing for that 'B' to 'A#/Bb' change besides minor 6 chords. With 'A' and 'B' pedals down...like I use it, there's some cabinet drop to compensate for. But don't some players use the vertical lever by itself...no pedals down? ( I couldn't anyways because my legs are too short and I can't engage it with my foot on the floor) Could that be what the Newman offset was intended for for that change?
Earnest, it's really the 'C' note that I'm tuning since the only way I use the vertical is with the 'A' pedal down. But can you expand on what you mean? I don't see how I can tune the 'C' independantly of the 'A#/Bb' because I only have the one tuning nut for the vertical lever. I'm not sure what you mean by that. My guitar is a Carter S10-DB, 3&5.

[This message was edited by Bill Miller on 05 January 2005 at 01:53 PM.]

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Bill, it sounds to me like you are looking at the Newmnan tuning intended for use of the Lever by itself, and your main use is a split with the A pedal. (There are a lot of licks using the B to A# change by itself). The Carter doesn't have a separate split tuner (as say, Emmons LeGrandes do) but there are least two ways to split tune on there. One way is to add another rod from the same finger that lowers the B to A#, but put it through an empty raise finger on the changer. That then becomes the final lower tuner for your A#, while the opriginal lowering tuner becomes the split tuner for your A# with B to C pedal change, to tune the C. There is a diagram and explanation for all this on my website here: http://www.markvanallen.com/tips.html
another way on Carters, they have an extra finger not hooked to anything just for half stop adjustments, and if you're not using that for your second string, you should be able to add a bellcrank and rod to that finger. The first way saves a crank, though, and works perfectly. Without the split tuning trick, you probably can't get it into tune both as an A# by itself, and a C split with the A pedal.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

Hey thanks Mark, I may just try that split trick. I'd use option #1 though since I DO use my second string half stop.
I probably wouldn't use the 'A#' on its own much because of the ergonomics thing but if I could find some good licks for it I might get used to holding my knee up in the air with my foot unsupported. (elevator shoes maybe??) Whether or not I'd use it, it would still be nice to have both options available and precisely in tune.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Bill--I 99% use the lever combined w/ the A pedal as you do (also with the BC combination). Without split tuning hardware (which I can't use on my Carter because on my U-12 I am out of raise holes on the 5th string) I just tune the lever to be an in-tune C (by ear) with the A pedal. The Bb note is sort of close to being in tune if you don't listen too hard. But without split tuning hardware, for both notes to be in tune would just be a coincidence.

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · From: Ayrshire, Scotland

Nothing to do with tuning, but if you play along to San Antonio Rose, you can do the whole tune's chord progression at one fret if you have that change.

jerry harkins · From: kingsland tx

I lower the 4th then the 5th and tune the 5th to the 4th with the lowers engaged.

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