Aloha and Holiday Greetings to Everyone!
I'm an intermediate-level guitarist, but beginning steel player with a keen interest in both traditional and contemporary Hawaiian Steel. But I'm also fond of the Tex/Mex Western-Swing sound, and I'm trying to learn what I can about the various console instruments in hopes of making the right future purchase, without committing any grave errors or oversights. Along the way, questions of various types have of course surfaced, most of which have been readily answered by knowledgeable others, yet on certain topics, I can't seem to get a straight answer from anyone, no matter how I try. Hence, I'm submitting this post in hopes that someone here in the SGF can help.
Ideally, I'd like to secure a high-end instrument that is capable of playing both styles cleanly (i.e., Hawaiian & Swing), and consequently, many have advised me to look at a new or vintage "non-pedal" D-6/D-8 (e.g., GeorgeBoard or Stringmaster) with the apparent assumption that the two necks could then be tuned to C6 (Hawaiian) and E-9, E-13, or whatever (for western/country types of applications). However, keeping in mind that I'm a relative amateur with a great deal yet to learn, a seemingly logical question then arises as to why avoid "pedal" instruments? In other words, if you're buying a double-necked instrument with the intention of having both options
(Hawaiian & Swing), why not purchase a standard D-8 or D-10 pedal instrument (e.g., Sho-Bud, Fessenden, etc.) that can presumably do the very same thing tonally, while also offering the advantages of pedals.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to any of these instruments to test drive them, but What am I missing here? Is it a pick-up or a circuitry issue of some kind? Outside of the electronics realm, aren't the two types of instruments (pedals and pedal-less) basically the same? And if pedals are
key to producing the Western/Swing sound, why wouldn't you want them on a double-necked guitar, especially if they don't affect the traditional Hawaiian sound? I know (for example), that the Sho-Buds are considered quite "hot" and therefore well-suited for Honky-Tonk applications, but
perhaps ill-suited for producing that richer, wetter, more ethereal Waikiki sound. Yet if that's all it is, couldn't the pick-ups on a Sho-Bud or a Fessenden or other pedal-equipped instrument simply be swapped out to something with less bite? In fact, couldn't the two opposing necks be
equipped differently in terms of pick-ups (one hot/E9 and one cool/C6)?
Needless to say, my ignorance is presently at a "dangerous" level, but I greatly appreciate everyone's time, understanding and insights, and I'm looking forward to hearing from the experts on the subject.
Mahalo nui loa and Mele Kalakimaka to all!
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To Pedal or Not?
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Gary Shepherd
- Posts: 2490
- Joined: 3 May 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Fox, Oklahoma, USA
- Contact:
Get a Carter Starter and try it out for a while.
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Gary Shepherd
Sierra Session D-10
www.16tracks.com
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Gary Shepherd
Sierra Session D-10
www.16tracks.com
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David L. Donald
- Posts: 13696
- Joined: 17 Feb 2003 1:01 am
- Location: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
- Contact:
Nothing against the Carter starter, but it is pretty much a Nashville E9 instrument,
and great beginners instrument for the majority of players.
But Joe has said he is doing the other styles, and no mention of classic country.
So while he would learn about the benifits of pedals, he wouldn't find much application for his uses.
Joe you seem to be pretty sure about your direction.
If you got a non pedal D-8, you could have classic hawaiian on one neck,
and classic E13 for a Don Helms or Tom Morrell sound on the other.
But whats cool on a pedal steel is that with a bit of thought, you could have pedals that gave you 2-4 different hawaiian tunings on one neck to either play like a lapsteel just holding pedals down, or move between tunings.
Then you could have some of the classic western swing changes on the other neck.
But you would NOT be able to trythese set ups on the Carter Starter, because it has a fixed set up.
Hopefully there is another Hawaiian steeler who will see this and invite you over. To try his.
If you have some of the Hawwaiian tunings you like or would want to use, please post them here.
The western swing stuff would be on most any C6 back neck on most any D-10 with 5 pedals and 2-4 levers on that neck.
A used Fessenden would be a better choice for an experimenter, because it is easier to work on than an old Sho-Bud, I know I have an old bud and do LOTS of experimenting.
But if you know the tunings you like, a "base tuning" and a few pedal actualted variations giving you your other tunings,
would be easily with in the province of any steel tech, and eventually yourself if you are mechanicly inclined.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 December 2004 at 02:10 AM.]</p></FONT>
and great beginners instrument for the majority of players.
But Joe has said he is doing the other styles, and no mention of classic country.
So while he would learn about the benifits of pedals, he wouldn't find much application for his uses.
Joe you seem to be pretty sure about your direction.
If you got a non pedal D-8, you could have classic hawaiian on one neck,
and classic E13 for a Don Helms or Tom Morrell sound on the other.
But whats cool on a pedal steel is that with a bit of thought, you could have pedals that gave you 2-4 different hawaiian tunings on one neck to either play like a lapsteel just holding pedals down, or move between tunings.
Then you could have some of the classic western swing changes on the other neck.
But you would NOT be able to trythese set ups on the Carter Starter, because it has a fixed set up.
Hopefully there is another Hawaiian steeler who will see this and invite you over. To try his.
If you have some of the Hawwaiian tunings you like or would want to use, please post them here.
The western swing stuff would be on most any C6 back neck on most any D-10 with 5 pedals and 2-4 levers on that neck.
A used Fessenden would be a better choice for an experimenter, because it is easier to work on than an old Sho-Bud, I know I have an old bud and do LOTS of experimenting.
But if you know the tunings you like, a "base tuning" and a few pedal actualted variations giving you your other tunings,
would be easily with in the province of any steel tech, and eventually yourself if you are mechanicly inclined.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 December 2004 at 02:10 AM.]</p></FONT>
See the reply in the No Peddlers section..
Basil
Mele Kalikimaka to all..
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http://www.waikiki-islanders.com
Basil
Mele Kalikimaka to all..
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<SMALL>Steel players do it without fretting</SMALL>
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com
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Ron Randall
- Posts: 2179
- Joined: 13 Jan 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
I understand where you are coming from. In the same boat about 3 years ago. I started on a T8 Stringmaster. Loved it and still do. I also play a new MSA Millenium SU12 8+5. Love it, too. Both are setup in my music room. I like to play Western swing, old time country and Hawaiian on the Stringmaster. The sound of the Stringmaster still grabs me.
The MSA can do all of the above plus more modern country, and jazz. Many times I play the MSA "no pedals". For fun and the sounds one gets sliding and slanting.
FWIW. The great Asleep at the Wheel band uses the non-pedal steel. Hawaiian players stay true to tradition by playing non-pedal electric and acoustic steels. Western style music is traditionally played on electric non-pedal.
I remember watching the great Tom Brumley play his pedal steel for several songs, and then play an old Rickenbacher. Wow.
There is a difference in tone/timbre/sound that is hard to describe.
I hope this rambling helps a bit.
Ron
The MSA can do all of the above plus more modern country, and jazz. Many times I play the MSA "no pedals". For fun and the sounds one gets sliding and slanting.
FWIW. The great Asleep at the Wheel band uses the non-pedal steel. Hawaiian players stay true to tradition by playing non-pedal electric and acoustic steels. Western style music is traditionally played on electric non-pedal.
I remember watching the great Tom Brumley play his pedal steel for several songs, and then play an old Rickenbacher. Wow.
There is a difference in tone/timbre/sound that is hard to describe.
I hope this rambling helps a bit.
Ron
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Joe Stewart
- Posts: 26
- Joined: 15 Jul 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Way Out West
Merry Xmas, and thanks guys, for all of the great comments! A tremendous amount of very meaningful information and insights . . .
GARY: Thanks for your suggestion on a Carter Starter but I'd like to enter the instructional realm with a somewhat higher level instrument, and further, as David mentioned above, it would be ill-suited for what I want to do.
DAVID: Thanks for your comments in both sections (i.e., Peddlers and No-Peddlers), and please, see my responses in both areas, but essentially, we're on the same wavelength with respect to configuring a non-pedal D8 (A6/E13). That's precisely what I've been envisioning, and configuring a psg the very same way, makes complete sense to me also. In fact, that's at the very heart of the issue (or quandary) as I see it, for two main reasons:
1) Basil's comments (No-Peddlers) seem to be strongly in favor of a psg, but not a D10, yet other than the "trick" D7/8 Sho-Bud of Greg Sardinha's that he's mentioned, I see little reference to any D8 Sho-Buds (or any other D8 psgs), anywhere. They're all D10/U12/Etc. Have I missed something? I'd love to pick up a D10 Sho-Bud pedal, and you've even mentioned a hypothetical desire to build "a PP S-10 for several lapsteel tunings rather than the ubiquitous E9" yourself, yet Basil's comments seem to imply that a D10 would be a poor choice. Any comments?
2) As a "beginning" player, numerous steelers (both professional and otherwise) have pointedly discouraged me from buying a psg, if for no other reason than the mechanical sophistication of these instruments, and quite frankly, I doubt that I'll have access to many qualified psg technicians out here in the Islands. Hence, if I go that route, I could end-up marooned with a white elephant that no one can adapt or adjust for me. Any thoughts? Again, I'd love to pick-up a D10 pedal, but shouldn't I be a bit concerned on this score? Are there quality instructionals available out there for me on the mechanics of these instruments (e.g., levers, pedals, rods, etc.) to allow for self-teaching?
Anyway, thanks so much for some excellent observations and comments David - very good food for thought. I'm grateful.
BASIL: Yes Basil, your comments in both sections have been duly noted (i.e., Peddlers and No-Peddlers), and I sincerely thank you for your opinion(s). Please also see my responses in both areas. As for your questions of me . . . I have been playing guitar now for just over 36-years including conventionally tuned acoustic/electric steel- and nylon stringed instruments (i.e., classical and flamenco), and also some limited exposure to a pair of original, open-tuned '36 National Style 'O' resonators with both slide and fingerpicking techniques. And finally, yes, I CAN indeed read tablature. But, these are all excellent observations you've made, particularly the one discouraging use of a D10 instrument for Hawaiian applications. Of course, others occasionally disagree with that assessment (see David's comments under No-Peddlers), and regrettably, that's where I was hoping to go if I were to purchase a psg (a D10 ShoBud). Now, if I may, let me pose a question to you sir, . . . as a beginner to console steel, shouldn't I be concerned in small measure about the mechanical complexities of "pedal" based instruments? Most polished players would quickly respond "yes" to that question, especially when my access to qualified psg technicians might be limited (i.e., there are "few" psg gurus adrift out here to help me if I get in a pinch)! I'd appreciate your views.
RON: Hardly "ramblings" my-friend, just worthwhile observations, and that's what I've solicited here, observations (andy observations) from experienced others. You're easily "well-qualified". So thanks! Further, your commnets on the overal sound of the Stringmaster are increasingly important to me. Whether I go with a pedal steel unit or not, I'm confident that I wiull continue to seek a good D8 Stringmaster. Thanks again and good luck!
Happy Holidays Everyone!
GARY: Thanks for your suggestion on a Carter Starter but I'd like to enter the instructional realm with a somewhat higher level instrument, and further, as David mentioned above, it would be ill-suited for what I want to do.
DAVID: Thanks for your comments in both sections (i.e., Peddlers and No-Peddlers), and please, see my responses in both areas, but essentially, we're on the same wavelength with respect to configuring a non-pedal D8 (A6/E13). That's precisely what I've been envisioning, and configuring a psg the very same way, makes complete sense to me also. In fact, that's at the very heart of the issue (or quandary) as I see it, for two main reasons:
1) Basil's comments (No-Peddlers) seem to be strongly in favor of a psg, but not a D10, yet other than the "trick" D7/8 Sho-Bud of Greg Sardinha's that he's mentioned, I see little reference to any D8 Sho-Buds (or any other D8 psgs), anywhere. They're all D10/U12/Etc. Have I missed something? I'd love to pick up a D10 Sho-Bud pedal, and you've even mentioned a hypothetical desire to build "a PP S-10 for several lapsteel tunings rather than the ubiquitous E9" yourself, yet Basil's comments seem to imply that a D10 would be a poor choice. Any comments?
2) As a "beginning" player, numerous steelers (both professional and otherwise) have pointedly discouraged me from buying a psg, if for no other reason than the mechanical sophistication of these instruments, and quite frankly, I doubt that I'll have access to many qualified psg technicians out here in the Islands. Hence, if I go that route, I could end-up marooned with a white elephant that no one can adapt or adjust for me. Any thoughts? Again, I'd love to pick-up a D10 pedal, but shouldn't I be a bit concerned on this score? Are there quality instructionals available out there for me on the mechanics of these instruments (e.g., levers, pedals, rods, etc.) to allow for self-teaching?
Anyway, thanks so much for some excellent observations and comments David - very good food for thought. I'm grateful.
BASIL: Yes Basil, your comments in both sections have been duly noted (i.e., Peddlers and No-Peddlers), and I sincerely thank you for your opinion(s). Please also see my responses in both areas. As for your questions of me . . . I have been playing guitar now for just over 36-years including conventionally tuned acoustic/electric steel- and nylon stringed instruments (i.e., classical and flamenco), and also some limited exposure to a pair of original, open-tuned '36 National Style 'O' resonators with both slide and fingerpicking techniques. And finally, yes, I CAN indeed read tablature. But, these are all excellent observations you've made, particularly the one discouraging use of a D10 instrument for Hawaiian applications. Of course, others occasionally disagree with that assessment (see David's comments under No-Peddlers), and regrettably, that's where I was hoping to go if I were to purchase a psg (a D10 ShoBud). Now, if I may, let me pose a question to you sir, . . . as a beginner to console steel, shouldn't I be concerned in small measure about the mechanical complexities of "pedal" based instruments? Most polished players would quickly respond "yes" to that question, especially when my access to qualified psg technicians might be limited (i.e., there are "few" psg gurus adrift out here to help me if I get in a pinch)! I'd appreciate your views.
RON: Hardly "ramblings" my-friend, just worthwhile observations, and that's what I've solicited here, observations (andy observations) from experienced others. You're easily "well-qualified". So thanks! Further, your commnets on the overal sound of the Stringmaster are increasingly important to me. Whether I go with a pedal steel unit or not, I'm confident that I wiull continue to seek a good D8 Stringmaster. Thanks again and good luck!
Happy Holidays Everyone!