Why aren't you playing a Universal guitar?

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 23 Dec 2004 10:15 am

OK, how much does a Uni weigh? An Emmons P/P D-10, 8 & 4, in the case weighs 65 lbs.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 23 Dec 2004 10:21 am

Actually, Michael, it's more a matter of convenience for phrasing. To me, it would be a pain in the ass to have to hit a knee lever to get the "equivalent" of the D string, on either neck. My lead line phrasing is a lot more fluid with the D string in the mix.

I think that some people, on both U-12 and C6th, don't like the middle D string because chording requires a little more thought when you have to skip a string. The trade-off is between chords and lead lines. I've been comfortable with skip-grip chords for a long time now, so I always opt for more strings per octave.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 23 Dec 2004 10:23 am

I'm still waiting for Jon to return my bike.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 23 Dec 2004 10:31 am

I don't have a low D on my E neck (modified Sacred Steel tuning) and I don't miss it at all.

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www.tyack.com

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 23 Dec 2004 12:40 pm

I use the D string so much that I almost think of the tuning as a DMaj9add13b5b9 tuning....

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 23 Dec 2004 1:16 pm

I'm with you on that, Rick....

I use the D note a lot, but it's not a big deal for me to use a knee lever to get it.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 23 Dec 2004 1:40 pm

I still have plenty to learn on the one I've got D10 SB (E).

I'd go for adding a middle D to the C6, and a Low E or G# to the E9 if anything. Danny Shields had a D11 I always wanted to try out. (He tuned it to a D9 and Bb6 from what I remember, and I think with standard guage strings.)

As it is, when my Marrs gets here I've got some 'sperimenting to do with the latest Mr E tuning. I'll have verts on both necks for the first time. I'm about to say "I can't wait".

I remember those 14 string Sierras and how hard they pushed and how confusing all those strings were, and never got any farther with it. Lynn Stafford's playing was sure an inspiration on them.

Merry Xmas.

EJL

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 23 Dec 2004 2:23 pm

Like Bobby, for me the D string issue is largely a matter of phrasing. Some things are much easier to play with that string in there.

I've never played a Bb6, but I like the concept and I'm sure it's very powerful. I'm not putting down the U12 at all, I'm just trying to say why the D10 could be said to have some advantages. As I said, the U12 also has some real advantages.

I can't really address the issues raised on my own guitar, since I don't have enough strings to add the D (I like my low B string), nor do I have enough raises and lowers to add all the changes I want.

As for lamenting the "missing C# string"--it's not missing. It's string two. Try getting rid of it, adding a full tone lower to your fourth string and a minor third raise to your fifth, and tell me how well you get along. I'm sure it's playable, but I can't see a lot of people ditching string two in this way.

-Travis

P.S. Best D10 vs. U12 thread ever, IMHO.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 23 Dec 2004 2:27 pm

The 'D' is really important as a root-note for me - that's why I don't want to be holding a lever to get it.

RR

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 23 Dec 2004 2:42 pm

I bought a new S-12 Zum Uni, about a year ago, after playing an E-9th for about 27 yrs.I would occasionally play B-6th with the 8th and 4th strings lowered and A-6th with the A and B pedals engaged. I enjoyed getting the swing sounds a lot, but, it had no real bottom end to it. What I like about the S-12 Uni is, that, I now have a really neat bottom end to use. I know that I'm a so called beginner at this, but, the advantage of going back and forth from E-9th to B-6th on the same neck is priceless to me. It's especially handy when you want to change the feel of a tune a bit. It can be done all on one neck without having to switch anything.
I must also admit, that, I have short arms and playing a D-10 was, and still is a problem for me. I just never can get comfortable playing one. It's turning out to be a great new learning phase on the steel
Just my humble opinion !!!

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 23 Dec 2004 4:04 pm

one of the most educational things i have done so far is to study sneaky pete's 8 string universal and leavitts 6 string lap tuning. i am very interested in the least common denominator to achieve inspired music. also jerry byrd, lloyd green, aubrey ghent, don rooke, david lindley ... [This message was edited by ebb on 23 December 2004 at 04:18 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 23 Dec 2004 5:55 pm

Yeah well I have C# as my 2nd string and I raise it to D# w/a half-stop at D and I do also lower my 4th(E)a whole tone on a second vertical. I've thought about raising my 5th a minor third and it would probably take it because of the nature of the Excel changer but I don't know where to put it unless I added another lever and the idea of 10 knee levers on a keyless single-wide is kinda challenging.Unless I could add it onto an existing lever...let's see...now ya got me thinking. See my problem is I want most all the changes everyone else has on both necks and a few of my own.....on one neck.I come pretty close to achieving that with 8+9 but at some point when you're all done obsessing,you just gotta sit down and play music with what ya got. I do so admire those guys like Byrd,Green and Murphey who get so much out of so little but I guess I'm more the type of geek who has a knee lever and a pair of pliers in his back pocket and nuts and bolts mixed in with the change and car keys in his front pocket at all times. -MJ-

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 23 Dec 2004 6:32 pm

I'm discovering a lot of so-called E9th licks on my 12-string C6th. I was always able to get plenty of western swing sounds out of my 12-string E9th. My conclusion is that any kind of music is playable on an S-12, whether it's a "universal" or not.

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 23 Dec 2004 8:06 pm

I do like the response David Spires made about the difference in pickups. He also mentioned the difference in string guages. To my ears there is a difference in the sound of the C6th than that of the B6th Universal. I just prefer a Double 10. There have been a few comments about the D string on the E9th tuning. I use the 9th string quiet a bit and I just do not feel I would want a lever to pull the string down while playing the E9th. As I stated before I had to hold a lever in that dropped the E notes to play the B6th. The Universal tuning is a great concept but I do not see it taking the place of a doubleneck guitar.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 24 Dec 2004 3:29 am

Like my bud Rick Schmidt, I play a D-12 and love the added notes especially on E9. Mike Perlowin kindly loaned me his Uni MSA for a few weeks, and I dinked with it but never got to liking it much. Mostly habit and comfort. But I also get a different "feel" from the two necks, and I like the physical and mental shifting you have to do to play different tunings, nice to stare intently at TWO necks, not just one, that's real show biz value, my friends!

I agree in theory with everything Mike Johnstone says, I do believe understanding one neck has the potential to make a studious player a more knowledgable musician. I'm just not quite there yet, but Mike sure is, he's a fantastic player on his Excel.

And like others have said, one of the grooviest things about psg is: you can do any dang thing you want with it, and if it suits YOU, it's RIGHT!

I do despise the weight of a D-12, I must confess.

I also agree the name Universal is inept. I prefer Combo; Bridge; Hybrid; Blended; Integrated is good...more thoughts, Uni-Boys?

Oh, one last theory of mine on why so many recording steelers don't go the Integrated route: any 12-string is much more prone to get undesired bottom strings notes droning as you glide up and down the neck, unless your technique is super clean. I'm patiently awaiting custom gauged rollers from Bill Stroud to arrive and solve most of that problem for me on my Mullen.

rpetersen · Post by **rpetersen** » 24 Dec 2004 5:50 am

I kind of get a kick out of some that just couldn't use a lever to get the "D" note - To me isn't isn't any harder that lowering the "E's" which I'm sure most do without even thinking about it - That's the way that lever feels to me - If I played a Single 10, I would put a G# on the bottom and a B on the 9th string - There are so many ways to use it and it just as easy as the E & D lever

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Ron Petersen &
The Keep'n Tyme Band
Mullen Universal 12 - 1975 Session 400 - Nashville 1000

Doug Rolfe · Post by **Doug Rolfe** » 24 Dec 2004 5:54 am

I started out on a 12 string extended e-9th. When I was taking lessons, the D string kept getting me in trouble as it was "in the way". The teacher suggested I go to a universal tuning. I had no idea what he was talking about, but he explained that we could get rid of the D string and move all the low strings up one and then we could put the D string on a knee lever. We did that and I added 4 floor pedals to handle the B6th tuning. I have never looked back. It was the best thing for me. Since I will never be anything more than a mediocre player, I don't need to have anything more than what the universal tuning offers me. There is already more there than I will ever be able to get out of it.
Having minored in music in college and played a variety of other instruments, I must say I like the challenge of the universal tuning and what it offers in theory.

I say to each his own. As an example, Lloyd Green plays a 10 string E9th with minimal changes and few effects, but if I could get 1/10 out of my steel that he gets out of his, I would be one happy camper.

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Doug
Dekley 12U 4k & 7p
2-Nash 400 & Quadraverb

[This message was edited by Doug Rolfe on 24 December 2004 at 05:56 AM.]

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 24 Dec 2004 6:53 am

As for the weight thing, at least for the only two builders who had specs on their sites:

Williams lists a D10(8&4) at 36 lbs.
S12U(7&4) is 30 lbs.
SD12U(7&4) is 35 lbs.
D12 (8&4) is 38 lbs.

Carter has the following weights listed:
D10 (8&5) is 38 lbs, 56 with case
S12 (7&5) is 32.5 lbs, 48.5 w/case
SD12(7&5) is 38 lbs, 56 w/ case
D12 (8&4) is 42 lbs, 63 w/ case

Seems like it's hard to make the case on a weight basis for not playing a D10.

Not that there aren't great reasons for it, and I can totally appreciate anyone's choice one way or the other, but 4 pounds don't convince me personally to relearn anything.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 24 Dec 2004 7:15 am

Unless you fly a lot with your axe and those last 4 or 6 lbs put you over the 50 lb limit (which it looks like they would do) and then they whack you for $75 each way to fly your guitar. After a few of those I might pay attention...

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Dec 2004 7:54 am

And also the size reason.
and S-12 is a LOT smaller on a train or in a trunk.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 24 Dec 2004 8:43 am

Well guys, it looks like I'm gonna get to really check out what all the hubub is about. I have a student who's gonna loan me his 2nd Zum U12 for an extended bit of time so I can get some insights into better ways to teach him. (you should see his number #1 laquer Zum S12...gorgeous!!!)I promise I'll be open minded as I dig into it!

I'll keep you posted.

If I were to ever go to a S12, I have a feeling that I personally would lean more towards something like Reece's tuning than the E9/B6 that's on this axe. What can I say? I'm a jazz nut at heart. I gotta say, with all the experimental changes I've got on my D12, I'm kinda doubtful that this is gonna do all that I ultimately want.

We'll see.....

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 24 Dec 2004 8:59 am

Years ago before I started playing steel, I had a dream that I was actually playing it. That visualization was an important step in the process. A few months ago I switched to a S12U and haven't touched my D-10s. I wanted to give the S12 a fair chance. Because of the two extra strings and the missing arm rest I still fumble a bit on certain things. Until last night I wasn't sure I was going to stick with the Universal and was thinking about digging the D-10s out of the closet. Seriously, last night I had a dream that I was back on the D-10 and fumbling even more than I do on the S12. I think the S12 is going to work out.

It gets better all the time. I see a lot more possibilities on the S12U than I did on the D-10 but it's not about the instrument, it's the player and thier approach. Byrd makes more music on 7 strings and no pedals than I ever will with 12 to 20 strings and 8 pedal and knee levers.

All the same changes I have on my D10s are there on the S12U. The only differences from what I see besides being in the key of B as opposed to C, are the two extra strings and the string order is a bit different on the top, but with a locking knee lever it can still be viewed as two tunings or you can ignore the lock and think of it as one tuning.

I don't expect everyone to think the same just because it works for me but if I were to encourage young players or beginners I would suggest a universal tuning. It seems like the natural evolution of the instrument. Was there a big resistance to pedals when they first came out? How long it take for steelers to convert to pedal steel from non-pedal?

Am I repeating what has already been said a thousand times?

This is a great thread.

Happy Holidays everyone!!!!!

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Dave Zirbel-
ZB Custom D-10 8 x 5, S-12U Kline 7 x6, Dobro Cyclops reissue, 1967 Fender Telecaster, Webb 6-14E, Fender Super Reverb
The Mother Truckers
The Cowlicks

[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 24 December 2004 at 09:02 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Dec 2004 9:05 am

Rick, give your self a bit of time to get used to the string spacing.
But after that I am sure you will find lots to like there.

I am in agreement with liking Reece's tuning for your reasons.
And if you are doing experiments yourself,
there is room to do that on any S-12.
I want one w/ 8+8 most stuff on the regular left knee place,
but a few changes in the middle too like ona D-10 .
If you think about it intelegntly, I think there need be little or no loss of real functionality in the long run. Dependant on style of course.

For minory ethnic jazz tunes I can see the Uni or Bb6 as being MUCH better than a D-10,
where my mind says I need both pedal sets in the same song faster than I could EVER change necks.

But no reason to sell the D-10 of course.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 December 2004 at 09:06 AM.]

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 24 Dec 2004 9:25 am

The bottom line is that it's ALL GOOD! It doesn't matter if it's 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 14 strings, pedals, no pedals, one neck, two necks, three necks or tuned to any of the keys between A to G, as long as you're making good music! Right?

The ONLY thing that matters is the color of the guitar!

DZ [This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 24 December 2004 at 09:28 AM.][This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 24 December 2004 at 09:31 AM.]

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 24 Dec 2004 9:46 am

David...I'm already use to 12 string spacing. I have a D12. Also, I'm not gonna really get to experiment with my own changes on this borrowed axe. I have 4 different changes on my own C6 (aka "C-elstial 6th")that I'm REALLY into! I sorta doubt that I can find those exact voicings on ANY other steel without my setup. I am sure though that I'll find great stuff with the bridged S12 tuning.
Once again...we'll see....