8 String C6 Tuning Adjustments...Why?

Dennis Montgomery · Post by **Dennis Montgomery** » 17 May 2016 9:37 pm

Hi all, just got my 1st 8 string console steel a couple weeks ago and have a tuning question. When I tune C6 (A-C-E-G-A-C-E-G) exactly to my digital tuner, the C-E and E-G harmonies are clearly off. I've seen E9 pedal steel charts that show how certain strings should be a few cents above or below exact pitch and always thought it was because of the pedal/knee sharps/flats not being accurate or something...but here I am with a console steel and have found the same thing.

I've gotten around this by tuning the A's to exact pitch then adjusting the C's, E's, and G's by ear, but don't understand why I have to. Can someone explain to me why tuning to exact pitch doesn't work? Does it have something to do with not having an adjustable bridge to fine tune the intonation?

Thanks!

Colin Bolton · Post by **Colin Bolton** » 17 May 2016 11:47 pm

I often find there is a difference when striking the string harder or softer to the exact note.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 18 May 2016 1:41 am

John Ely is a fountain of knowledge and experience and explains this on his Site.

http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/learning/tuning_up.php

Enjoy

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 18 May 2016 1:41 am

When tuning the strings according to your digital tuner it will "most likely" show all the notes in tune according to equal temperament (unless told otherwise). Not all electronic tuners have option to do anything other than equal temperament settings.
If you only play harmonies w 2 strings at a time there is no problem as the interval can be adjusted in real time by slants/pressure/position to sound in tune.
Trouble starts when you try to play 3 strings at the same time, because equal temperament notes are not the same as "overtone" notes.
The A and E should be tuned together and likewise C and G tuned together.
If you tune C and G with your tuner, you will have to tune both A and E "flat" in order for the open strings to ring really nice.
If however you tune the A and E with your tuner, then the C and G have to be tuned slightly sharp.

The A C E G A C E G tuning can be viewed as 4 minor 3rd intervals. A-C E-G A-C E-G. So if you start by tuning all 8 strings w your electronic tuner first, then after that raise the C and G strings anything from 4 cents to 14 cents should get you to where you wanna be. Just make sure that the C and G is raised the same amount in pitch.

If you strike the string harder it will sound as beeing sharp/higher than when played lightly, so tune the guitar by striking the string the way you would when playing the actual songs.

Even when you think you have gotten the A-C or E-G interval correct it can sometimes sound out of tune or not as "in tune" as it could be because it is played as part of some chord where where the highest note has to be intonated slightly sharp or slightly below what your strings are tuned to.
The G in E-G in an E minor chord might be tuned/intonated differently that the G in E-G found in an A7 chord.
But in order to not go completly crazy, start tuning all strings according to your tuner, then raise the C and G strings accrding to what sounds best.
Also learn how to tune those strings without the tuner by using your lowest string as a reference, then you can check with the tuner afterwards how much off it shows on the different strings.

Good thing is that you actually hear that there is something wrong.
Downside is that it can also be a curse since the more you play and listen to your lap steel, the more out of tune a regular guitar or piano probably will sound.

Hope this helps. Aint nothing wrong with your guitar or tuner or ears, it is just intonation and how to get it right whatever that might be.

B.Erlandsen

Roger Fletcher · Post by **Roger Fletcher** » 18 May 2016 2:02 am

Hello Dennis,

Equal temperament (which your tuner uses) was devised for keyboard instruments so that they could be played in any key and is a compromise. That is to say, most notes are slightly out of tune, particularly the major third (E in your C6 tuning), which is unpleasantly sharp.

It is a complicated subject, and I would recommend the book "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and why you should care)" by Ross W. Duffin.

Some players tune to Just Intonation, but I find this problematic, especially with more complex tunings. I use sixth-comma meantone (explained in the above book), which seems to work well.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 18 May 2016 7:22 am

It gets overly complicated for me. I just want my guitar to sound in tune with itself. If I am playing with keys, for instance like on the sessions for my record, I don't mind being slightly out of tune with the piano, as long as my steel is in tune. It's actually that slight out-of-tune quality that makes it sound so interesting and ethereal to me. Plus, the notes and pitches are always changing and there is vibrato.

When I tune, I tend to lower the Es and A slightly. I think.

And I don't really use a tuner.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 18 May 2016 8:03 am

I usually flat the 3rds and the 6ths slightly. If I tune all strings to 440 and strum across the strings, the 6th tone sounds sharp to my ear, within the context of the chord. And the 3rd sounds slightly out of tune too. So I tune those intervals slightly flat, and the major chords and the 6th chords sound perfectly in tune. Of course, as we move the bar up the neck playing two string harmonies, those flatted strings will become the root, the 5th, etc. of other chords in the song. A good player will naturally intonate with the bar as he plays those harmonies up the neck.

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 18 May 2016 8:19 am

Tune the top E to middle E on a piano, or an E tuning fork.
Then use the bar to note the second string and tune it exactly to the first string .... Perhaps a forumite will post the old Nick Manoloff or Jerry Bryd how to tune chart. It works fine.

A fiddle player tunes to perfect fifths. You can tune to perfect fifths, fourths and octaves then 'fudge a little on thirds and sixths until they sound 'smooth' to your ear.

Stay away from equal temperament.

Thanx,
Jim

Dennis Montgomery · Post by **Dennis Montgomery** » 18 May 2016 4:15 pm

Bengt Erlandsen wrote: If however you tune the A and E with your tuner, then the C and G have to be tuned slightly sharp.

Thanks for the help and explanations everyone! Bengt's statement above illustrates what is working best for me at this point. Also, I'm running my steel through some distortion so the equal temperament inconsistencies in 2 or 3 note chords are painfully obvious if I don't sharp those C & G strings

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 19 May 2016 12:24 am

Mike Neer wrote:It gets overly complicated for me. I just want my guitar to sound in tune with itself. If I am playing with keys, for instance like on the sessions for my record, I don't mind being slightly out of tune with the piano, as long as my steel is in tune. It's actually that slight out-of-tune quality that makes it sound so interesting and ethereal to me. Plus, the notes and pitches are always changing and there is vibrato.

When I tune, I tend to lower the Es and A slightly. I think. And I don't really use a tuner.

Mike Hurry Up I am excited to order the album. Don't think your reduced posts haven't gone unnoticed. Can't wait.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 19 May 2016 1:43 am

If you add distortion you will definitly notice certain issues when playing 2 or 3 strings at the same time.
Some things to keep in mind:

Distortion comes in many flavors and will produce different subharmonies according to amount of distortion and type of distortion.

Rolling off treble before going into the distortion will have great impact on end result.

Some combinations of certain notes/strings/voicing does not sound good at all with distortion and should be avoided if possible.

Muting of strings that is not played is very important for a good sound.

minor 3rds, Major 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, minor6ths and major6ths works with distortion but be careful if adding one more note there. Doubling the lowest note an octave below will enhance the distorted sound.

Stacked 3rd voicings like a C major C E G or A minor A C E will sound muddy with distortion. Using open voiced chord E - C - G or A - E - C will most likely sound better.

The tuning A C E G A C E G will ask for a cleaner sound more than a distored one due to all the different 3rd intervals there. It will require some controlled muting of the strings not played in order to sound good with distortion.

The next 3 practise really help when using distortion.

Practise muting one string and playing the 5th or 4th interval on the strings on ea side of the muted string.

Practise muting 2 adjacent strings and play the outer 2 strings next to the muted ones.

Practise muting 3 adjacent strings and play octaves on the outer strings next to the muted ones.

Try different types of distortion, the differences between them can be dramatic. When you find one that you like, learn how it behaves and responds to different intervals and combinations of certain notes, then you can use it as a creative tool for your playing.

B.Erlandsen

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 19 May 2016 2:12 am

Bengt makes an important point. It is while using distortion that I tend to get distracted by the beats in any non-JI intervals. These compromises are usually acceptable enough for me when playing clean. In addition to the subharmonics that he mentions, just the fact that distortions increase sustain so that you have much longer durations of the slightly conflicting harmonies makes the issue more apparent. I also have a theory (that I just made up) that distortion adds sustain to upper harmonics that would have decayed more quickly, naturally, and not added to the mix.

Andy Henriksen · Post by **Andy Henriksen** » 20 May 2016 7:36 am

So, I primarily play ACEGACEG also, and this business is something I've largely been ignoring, and just getting it close enough with the tuner. I play in a band. No keys in the band, but two other guitarist (1 lead, 1 acoustic rhythm) and a bassist.

Based on that, of the options listed above, which would likely be best - raising the C&G or flatting the E&A? Or split the difference and do a little bit of each?

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 20 May 2016 10:59 am

Consider these 2 things......
The open strings serve two purposes.
1 the note of the open string itself(has to work with rest of the band)
2 offsetting a note above/below according to your equal temperament fret positions.

If you use one or the other string for Root reference in order not to get lost it would probably be helpful if that note is spot on equal tempered on the open strings and everything else is relative to that. Altho your ears should tell when you are in tune more than the position itself.

Splitting the difference means that no note right above your fret marks is gonna be spot on equal tempered.

My best advice is to try all 3 options and figure what works best.

Single note and 2 part harmonies played with the bar is gonna work no matter how the open strings are tuned. It is when we throw in that 3rd string somewhere or strumming chords that headache starts

B.Erlandsen

Matt Berg · Post by **Matt Berg** » 23 May 2016 11:55 am

A drawback to JI tuning is that forward slants will be more out of tune than your equal temperament unslanted triads. There was a similar thread years ago and b0b confirmed my arithmetic with his Petersen strobe tuner, IIRC.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 23 May 2016 3:43 pm

http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/_sgg/m7_1.htm

Click .... Tuning up via JI ... & ... Slantin' in JI

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 24 May 2016 7:37 am

Andy Henriksen wrote:So, I primarily play ACEGACEG also, and this business is something I've largely been ignoring, and just getting it close enough with the tuner. I play in a band. No keys in the band, but two other guitarist (1 lead, 1 acoustic rhythm) and a bassist.

Based on that, of the options listed above, which would likely be best - raising the C&G or flatting the E&A? Or split the difference and do a little bit of each?

I split the difference by tuning my Cs about 5 cents sharp and then tune the rest of the strings by ear. The Es end up just a few cents flat and none of the notes end up way sharp or flat.