Why don't more players play 12string steels?

[Tony Glassman]

I love the concept of the S-12U - so much so, that I sold a couple of D-10s and bought two s-12's. I figured, I'd just dive in and experience baptism by hell fire. Like Chris, I found it confusing and could not get comfortable with looking and grabbing at 12 strings. I sold 'em both after 3 months. I'm a confirmed D-10 guy.

[b0b]

With all due respect, I find that the extra string and extended bass range is not just helpful, but essential for my endeavors. Of course, my interests and goals are not typical of most steel guitarists. But I could not achieve those goals if I only had 10 strings.

Why not? What would you not be able to do if your lowest note was B instead of A, and your highest open string note was G instead of A? Would that small sacrifice of range really keep you from achieving your goals?

Here's my 10-string idea: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=297172

[Glenn Suchan]

... If you didn't start on a 12 relatively early in you playing, you probably won't be able to make the switch for reasons listed.

I played a great Emmons P/P S10 (E9 tuning) for about 16 years and decided, after talking to Don Christiansen, of Sierra Instruments I needed to have an S14 (E9/B6 tuning). The day it arrived I played a gig with it. Let me tell ya', I sounded like two cats fightin' to get out of a burlap sack. But then after a few weeks, I got used to it, and sounded like only one cat fightin' to get out of a burlap sack.

Seriously, it took a few weeks to get used to the string spacing and re-acqainting myself with the different string grips. After that and because it was a Sierra, I really enjoyed playing a 14-string guitar - as an instrument and for tone. Eventually (after about 10 years), I went back to an Emmons P/P. The reason being, I missed the unique tone and feel of those guitars. I went back to an S12 uni.; played it for about a year or so and bought my final guitar; an Emmons D10 P/P. So I guess I've gone full-circle.

For a short while, I kept the S14 and S12 along with the D10. At that time, I swapped playing them in my practice room to stay comfortable with the different ergonomics of each. These days, the D10 remains my only guitar.

In retrospect, I liked each for their differences, and once I played them for a while, the differences didn't present any major problems.

Keep on pickin'
Glenn

[Mike Perlowin]

With all due respect, I find that the extra string and extended bass range is not just helpful, but essential for my endeavors. Of course, my interests and goals are not typical of most steel guitarists. But I could not achieve those goals if I only had 10 strings.

Why not? What would you not be able to do if your lowest note was B instead of A, and your highest open string note was G instead of A? Would that small sacrifice of range really keep you from achieving your goals?

Here's my 10-string idea: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=297172

Bobby, please clarify whether you’re referring to the regular B note normally found on the 10th string, or the note an octave lower in my 12th string.

Assuming it’s the latter, I must admit that the low strings are basically only useful in a country band to provide some support when another instrument is taking a ride. And they can conflict with what the bass player is doing.

But as you know, I’m attempting to play classical music on the steel, and much of what I play requires the extended range, including the low A, that I have on my 12 string.

The last time I played in Phoenix, I played a Piece called Reverie by Claude Debussy, as well as my (admittedly dumb) fuzz toned rock version of Gloria. Both tunes used the 12th string, although not lowered to A.

I drop the string to A on both the Bourrée found here: http://pedalsteelmusic.com/?p=502
and on the 2002 rock video that I’ve posted a gazillion times before. (Apologies to those who have already seen it.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkSnoeTWR4I

Neither of these tunes can be played the way I played them on a 10 string guitar, or even a 12 string that did not have that low B string, with the change lowering it to A.

I believe that the steel’s potential has barely been scratched, and that there is a whole universe full of steel-friendly music in all genres. I have a couple of guitars that are capable of handling anything I can ask of them.

I don’t say that for everybody should play a 12 stringed steel, but they work for me.

[b0b]

You obviously didn't click my link, Mike. The clarification is there.

Suppose that, on a 10 string, the lowest string was D with a pedal that lowered it to B. That gives you same low notes as a cello. Seems to me that if it's low enough for Yo-Yo Ma, it should be low enough for a classical steel player.

Segovia's guitar only went down to E.

[Mike Perlowin]

Suppose that, on a 10 string, the lowest string was D with a pedal that lowered it to B. That gives you same low notes as a cello. Seems to me that if it's low enough for Yo-Yo Ma, it should be low enough for a classical steel player.

It's not.

[b0b]

A 10-string E9th can't play all of the notes that a 6 string guitar can play. If you're in a quartet of guitar, steel, bass and drums, the low middle falls out when the guitarist is playing lead. There are 3 possible solutions to this:

1. Play a D-10 and switch to C6th when the guitarist plays lead
2. Play an S-12
3. Play an S-10 with a non-standard copedent

For 35 years I advocated for option 2, as did many others. But new players are intimidated by 12 strings. The SD-10 is by far the most popular new guitar model sold today. The market has spoken.

So now I'm advocating for option 3. It's time to figure out how to get those low notes from an S-10 without compromising the versatility of the instrument. I've come up with D6/G which seems to meet the requirements. Others have simply omitted the D or F# of the E9th to add a low E as their 10th string. I didn't go that way because I didn't want to abandon the beautiful chord positions of the C6th.

A standard 6-string guitar has a full range and fits in almost any kind of music. A standard 10 string pedal steel should, too. That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

[Doug Palmer]

I can see the advantage of having the lower notes for comping with a small band, and I have tried a 12 string extended E-9 but went back to a D-10. The Uni E-9/B-6 is untunable to my ear as I use a tempered tuning system.

[Jack Aldrich]

Well, 10 strings is more than enough for me. Ir you mean like a 12 string guitar, there are octave doublers out there that od the trick.

[Duane Reese]

Oh, and there is one more reason that 12-string isn't as popular... Many have inferred religious duty to play 10-string steels from Psalm 92:3. I'm actually serious.

[Pete Burak]

Set-lists like this is why I like having a B6th Lever-Lock on S12U...
Again, if you have one, you can either use it, or not use it...

This just in:

Hi guys,
Here's the set list for tomorrow.
Gonna be fun!


1 Funny How Time Slips Away – D

2 San Antonio Rose - G

3 All Of Me – G

4 Chattanooga Shoeshine Boy – A

5 Walking After Midnight - D

6 Mona Lisa - C

7 Don't Get Around Much Anymore - A

8 Everything But You - C

9 Let's Chase Each Other - A

10 Crazy – C

11 Hey Good Lookin' - G

12 I'm In The Mood For Love - A

13 Route 66 - G

14 Candy - G

15 My Wife Thinks You're Dead - A

16 The Lady Is a Tramp - G

17 You Don't Know Me - A

18 Three Days - A



19 Big City – D

20 Alright, Okay, You Win – E

21 Don't Get Around Much Anymore - A

22 Cigarette and Coffee Blues – C

23 Cow Cow Boogie – A

24 Deed I Do - C

25 I’m Just An Old Chunk of Coal - D

26 Six Pack To Go - A

27 It's Just a Matter of Time - E

28 Home in San Antone - D

29 Everybody's Had The Blues – D

30 Exactly Like You - G

31 Playboy - A

32 He’s Got You – G

33 Hello Walls - C



Don't You Ever Get Tired of Hurting Me – D

Goin' Away Party - C

Mind Your Own Business - C

Working Man Blues - G


Cherokee Boogie - G

[Steve Knight]

Great setlist, Pete! I would love to play steel, guitar or just drink beer all night to that setlist.

[mike nolan]

More people don't play it because it is different. The used, more affordable market is smaller, the entry level market is non existent. Course material is not as abundant as E9 and C6 material. Most of the standard classic songs were recorded on E9 or C6 necks. The steel guitar heroes did, for the most part, not play the Uni tuning. It can be difficult and confusing to tune properly. Lever placement on the single body versions can be a challenge. There are compromises from the standard E9 C6 tunings..... etc.

The newest Excel Uni guitars can be set up as complete E9 and C6 tunings on one neck with the lever lock and independent tuning systems. For some players, that could be very useful.... however it somewhat defeats the one big tuning approach. I'm looking into buying one, but to use as a standard Uni with the lock and independent tuning used for tweaks to the locked position B6 that will be different from the manually lowered B6.

I do play Uni guitars, because I'm not doing straight up country gigs very often these days. For those gigs, a S-10 E9 guitar goes along. Most of my work is in the rock, pop, and blues world. The Uni is a great tool for these types of music.... The Uni tuning is not a compromise here, IMHO, it is a better tuning. As the instrument branches out into more genres, we will probably see more folks playing some variant of the Uni. Then there will be more being built and used.

[Drew Pierce]

There was a surge in interest in S12 universals in the late '70s and a lot of pros, including Buddy, started playing them and it looked like that might be the way of the future. But by the mid '80s, with the exception of a few, most of the top players had gone back to D10s and that's pretty much the way it remains today.

[Tom Cooper]

I love the 12 string guitar because of the cool low voicings and comping you can do. Great for gospel and rock and roll. Only thing I don't like is the chromatic strings in the way in B6 mode. Have to grip weird. Don't like it. Get used to it and can kinda function on it but a bit awkward. I use my 12 string uni at church and studio only as it is lacquer. I take the Emmons Legrand D10 for barrooms as it is mica. Also C6 is on D10 more comfortable for classic country gig I mostly use it for. Do a lot of songs like mentioned above. Actually I tune to B6 as to not get confused with Uni. I almost sold the Uni but glad I didn't now. It serves a great function in my little stable. Get lost sometime trying to find string 8 but low notes are so cool when you need them. Still gonna keep the D10 for the battlefield though. I am kinda surprised the 11 and 12 string extended didn't become the standard. That is what seems most useful to me. But I am still learning. They are all really cool and relevant in their own way. Sometimes I leave them both home and bust out my little GS10 push pull 3x1! It's amazing. So alive. One day I will add knee levers. Will be my retirement guitar when I can't lift the other two anymore! That said I am also very intrigued by Bobs 8 string setup. I think it is also great way to go. Less is more. But yeah, I got 12 string uni as experiment and ended up liking it for specific situations. D10 and S10 still do the dirty work though. Uni 12 is my little excursion. They are fun and can do some neat stuff. I will always want a standard setup available as well. D10 is just more familiar for classic gigs. Seems more right tool. My MSA late 70s Uni lacquer does sound like a dream! Hard to tell it apart from push pull. Legrande is great too. Just a bit darker sounding. Easier pedal action though and very stable. Love my Steels!

[Carl Mesrobian]

When you play gospel music you can't use a 12 string guitar.
"Give praises to the Lord on an instrument of 10
strings" (Psalms 33:2)

http://b0b.com/tunings/sacredsteel.html

[Alan Brookes]

When you play gospel music you can't use a 12 string guitar.
"Give praises to the Lord on an instrument of 10 strings" (Psalms 33:2):D

http://b0b.com/tunings/sacredsteel.html

Erv wasn't being serious. He was quoting from the Bible. If you want to get serious you should point out that the instrument referred to in the Bible was a 10-string Lyre.

[Mike Perlowin]

Perhaps the finest gospel steel guitar recording ever made is Maurice Anderson's "Universal Direction," which was recorded in a 12 stringed instrument.

I usually hate heavily orchestrated records. I absolutely hate background vocals. And not being being a Christian, the religious nature of this album was lost on me.

Yet, despite having 3 strikes against it. this album is one of my absolute favorite steel guitar albums. It's so beautiful that it overcame my prejudices.

Reece was a deeply religious man. This record showed his love for his faith, and that love comes through with every note he played. (On his 12 string.)

[Allan Jirik]

I realize there's no real need to have the extra two strings but I'm happy with my S12. It gives me a bit more to explore and fool around with. Yes, sometimes finding that 8th string anchor in a pinch can be a problem but it gets better with practice.

[John Billings]

"I realize there's no real need to have the extra two strings"

Allan! I disagree! I use that lowE string all the time. As I said "It's my cello" string, and great to have a low root.

[Allan Jirik]

John, I was trying to be gratuitous, meaning it is possible to live a single or double ten life and be happy. Secretly, I love my 12 and every discovery is golden.

[Robbie Daniels]

I think the choice of 10 or 12 depends on the the want and needs of the steeler him or herself. Back in the mid 60's I was playing a Fender 400 and purchased a D12 MSA and have been playing D12's since that time. I prefer the 12 strings mainly for the lower notes I can get along with the higher strings. I am not really into the unversal fad although I have tried one. It's all personal.

[Mark van Allen]

After working at 12 for a while I can see how a long-dedicated double neck player could have trouble getting used to it, muscle memory and all.

I played many years on single necks before getting my first D10, and hence never had the depth of immersion into C6 that I had on E9. I find it fascinating that nearly all of both tunings can be musically and mechanically combined into one unit. I'm constantly tripping over insights into E9, for instance, provided by having the "6th side" under my hands as well.

As I tackle my 60's (how'd that happen?) I find I have a lot of motivation to stimulate my mind and mind-muscle connections, and exploring the U12 seems like it will provide all the years I need of "new" and "possible". Plus it's just plain fun.

It does take me a bit longer to absorb new ways of playing, but then again I don't have the 7-10 hours a day to dedicate that I did when starting out. I do wish I had not listened to the naysayers and had gone right to Universal in the late 70's.

[Carl Mesrobian]

after playing 10 for a long time and sitting down at a 12, it's very awkward finding the 8th string.
i tried several times but always got confused.

i suppose if you try long and hard enough it gets easier.

True that! I just got my 92 Mullen S12 EXE9 up and running and I think it's a keeper. After playing 6 string for over 50 years I miss those low notes on a 10 string pedal steel and don't care to lug a D 10 around -- we'll see..