Learning Lap Steel vs Dobro

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 28 Feb 2016 2:52 pm

I'm not saying this is absolutely the best approach. But let's just say that you want to play both dobro and lap steel. The classic dobro tuning is high bass Open G.

This can also be played on a lap steel guitar. Are you sacrificing something by not using a "real" 6 string electric lap steel tuning like C6th? i guess it is in the ear of the beholder. The video below has been shared in a number of threads here. It's a long video of over an hour.

But for right now, go to the 32:00 mark and check out Al Perkins on an Open G tuned Magnatone lap steel with Steve Krenz on electric guitar playing the classic 1968 Fleetwood Mac instrumental by Peter Green, Albatross. Al gets exquisite tone with beautiful playing technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blV36yj9G5c

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 28 Feb 2016 3:52 pm

Any tuning will work but some offer better options for certain styles. (Even the standard Dobro G major tuning has within it a "minor 3rd" interval using the B and D notes to suggest a Bm chord)
And by using slants and combining open strings and barred notes most harmonies are possible.

There are so many tuning choices it can become overwhelming, and there are many wonderful steel players on this forum who will all offer their favorites. That's why there are dozens of threads about tuning options.

Welcome to the party!

Dom

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 29 Feb 2016 9:53 am

It's interesting when you think that many players might go their entire lives on regular or "Spanish" guitar never venturing out of standard low-to-high EADGBE tuning, with perhaps an occasional foray into something like Drop D by tuning down the 6th string from E to D. Because of the genius of standard guitar tuning, you really don't have to deviate from standard and for most folks you can get pretty much everything you need.

Andy Volk posted earlier in the thread, and I really enjoy his little Slide Rules book that fits handily into a case. It's only 39 pages but it isn't short on content. In 6 string lap steel/dobro/weissenborn alone Andy lists and comments on 42 tunings. Compare that to the "one size fits all" aspect of standard guitar with EADGBE.

It makes sense that if your main dobro tuning is Open G and you plug in sometimes on a lap steel like Jerry Douglas, Rob Ickes, or Mike Witcher that you might stick with that tuning most of the time since you know it like the back of your hand.

I find it interesting that some of the top pedal steel cats when playing 6 string lap steel utilize an open major chord tuning like Al Perkins does in the video I linked. I have also seen this from Bruce Bouton, Dan Dugmore and Mike Johnson. No doubt all these guys know their way around the C6th neck on their pedal steels - you'd think when playing a 6 string lap guitar they might just utilize the simpler version of C6th that is used on the back neck of their pedal guitars?

Except they don't. So as Dom wrote, "any tuning will work but some offer better options for certain styles." It seems to me that when guys like Bruce and Dan switch over to lap steel from pedals, it's typically on a song that might be more rock oriented, or perhaps modern country which is often rock music in disguise. And they will add some gain for more of an overdriven sound on those numbers. That's really one of the main uses of lap steel these days, something Lindley has been doing for many years with the likes of Jackson Browne.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 29 Feb 2016 11:00 am

The main difference between the standard open G tuning of bluegrass and C6 is the missing string. It means that when you move from one instrument to the other you have to be continually aware of this. The answer is to tune your Dobro to G6, or, preferably, to get an 8-string resonator guitar and tune it to G6.
I've gone both ways. I've built 8-string resonator guitars, which can be played exactly as a lap steel. My most-recent resonator guitar has 6 strings and I've built a Duesenberg Multibender into it so that I can play a lot of pedal steel licks using the palm levers.

Here's a 8-string resonator which I converted from a regular 8-string guitar....

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 29 Feb 2016 11:40 am

Alan, I really like the looks of the guitar in the top photo, I recall seeing it here in a thread some time back.

I'm confused about your comment of G vs C6th and the missing string. It seems to me there are lot of differences between the two. First of all, the notes are obviously all in different locations. Then there are the intervals of the tunings. The typical C6th is low to high, root-3rd-5th-6th-root-3rd. Sure, the intervals for the major chord are the same on the lower 3 strings.

In high bass G it's root-3rd-5th-root-3rd-5th. in the typical G6th it's root-3rd-6th-root-3rd-5th.

IMO, this completely changes the feel of the guitar across your lap (and in your brain).

And it's not necessarily preferable to have an 8 string resonator over a 6 string version for a whole bunch of reasons - I don't believe I would write that as if it were a given.

The more tunings one can play with competence and confidence is certainly a great idea. But sticking with one to where you can play things without having to think too hard about it before moving on to some other mathematical problem to solve might be best for the newer player.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 1 Mar 2016 6:20 am

Mike Neer wrote:...I think I'm gonna switch to dobro.

Don't make me laugh Mike. Lap Steel Guitar needs you. You don't pick and choose. Your instrument has chosen you for good and bad. Stick with it Mike.

besides. What's stopping you from executing hammer-ons like a Dobro in C6???

Nothing.

This entire forum over the years has shown you nothing but encouragement in your Lap Steel Guitar endeavours. Don't give up. I know I won't.

Bob Watson · Post by **Bob Watson** » 1 Mar 2016 11:37 pm

I had played pedal steel (mainly E9 but I dabbled in C6 too) for 22 years when I got my 1st Dobro. It was a lot of fun to play because of the swampy sound they have and I had wanted one for quite sometime before I could afford one. Standard C&W tunes came easy to me and eventually I started learning how to play Bluegrass, which uses a lot more open strings utilizing "hammer ons" and "pull offs" to play faster single note lines. The standard square neck dobro tuning, GBDGBD, is the gold standard to playing Bluegrass, but I've also heard accomplished players play a lot of different styles of music using this tuning. A few years after picking up a dobro, I bought a 6 string lap steel and tuned it to C6, which I was familiar with from the back neck of my pedal steel. It was strange not having the other 4 strings and pedals at first but it was a lot of fun to play. Being plugged in makes the overall sound more "lively" compared to a Dobro and it is harder to get good intonation because you can hear more overtones. When I picked up an 8 string lap steel I started experimenting with various tunings, which was a bit confusing at first. I finally picked up an 8 string square neck dobro tuned EGBDEGBD which helped me to understand more of how the various tunings for lap steels had progressed. Having the E string gave me the ability to get all of the inversions of the minor triad, which was possible on the C6 but the significance of this hadn't hit me playing the 6 string lap steel. Here's my take on your question. I think concentrating on the Dobro at first is a good way to develop some basic technique and will also teach you an easy approach to learning how to harmonize melody lines. After you develop some proficiency you can start to concentrate on the difference in technique that the C6 lap steel will entail and you'll enjoy being able to get all of the minor triad inversions. To me it seems like a more logical progression, although I'm sure some will disagree. Ultimately, the instrument that "speaks" to you will be the one which you are drawn to, but I feel the basic dobro tuning and technique is a good starting place. I hope this helps.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 2 Mar 2016 1:38 am

Oh k I'm going to ruffle some feathers

Open G tuning in MY opinion is a waste of time.

As soon as I started playing it obvious questions cropped up:
Where are all the chords?
What if I don't want to always hammer on.

So I say this Dobro technique and approach has little to do with Lap Steel Guitar.

If you are a Dobro player and that is the goal great.

But it's nowhere near the same as Lap Steel Guitar in its approach.
The tone bar is different
The tuning
The approach
The picking techniques

I would say if you want to learn to play Lap Steel Guitar then do so. If you want to play Dobro then do so. But they are not even a step in the right direction one towards another.

Peter Jacobs · Post by **Peter Jacobs** » 2 Mar 2016 6:05 am

Hey, Russell - I came to lap steel from, of all places, banjo. I was in a newgrass group and I wanted something with more sustain for some songs. Like a knucklehead, I figured, "open G and fingerpicks, how hard can it be?" We all know the answer to that...

I didn't get a reso guitar for another 10 years. Yes, there is a huge difference in technique, for me anyway. The toughest thing about electric instruments is that they sustain so easily, which means I need to remember to play less and really use the sustain.

With reso, I find I'm more attracted to the "woodiness" of the tone, so, I play things that focus on that. I will use more hammer-ons and pull-offs with reso, because to my it, it seems to lend itself to that.

I guess for me, I don't want to choose one or the other, and I wouldn't say one is easier to learn than the other. I go back and forth - maybe that means I'm not advancing as quickly as I could, but I'm in this for the fun of it, and it's working for my band situation (where I don't play reso at all). I use a low bass G tuning on both, because I wasn't using the low B. But I'm not playing western or Hawaiian music, so YMMV.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 2 Mar 2016 7:35 am

Stefan Robertson wrote:Oh k I'm going to ruffle some feathers

Open G tuning in MY opinion is a waste of time.

Tell that to all the dobro players who use that tuning with great success in jazz, blues, country, bluegrass and rock among many. There are far more people using open G tuning than any other non-pedal steel guitar tuning.

Ulrich Sinn · Post by **Ulrich Sinn** » 2 Mar 2016 9:28 am

Is it easier to learn the Lap Steel first and then the Dobro or the opposite?

I think dobro has the advantage that there is an abundance of highly visible (well, relatively speaking) players and material out there.

Non-pedal lap steel is (if that is even possible) more of a fringe instrument and the perpetrators are a fractured bunch on top of it.

To learn lap steel you have to make a lot of decisions kind of right away:
- which tuning
- how many strings
- what style
- (etc)

This will affect the path of learning the instrument right from the start.

So, I think it is easier to learn dobro first from a purely educational standpoint.

At the same time: if you play saxophone, you may double on flute or clarinet.
Still, those are quite different instruments which happen to share traits.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 2 Mar 2016 9:43 am

Brad Bechtel wrote:
Stefan Robertson wrote:Oh k I'm going to ruffle some feathers

Open G tuning in MY opinion is a waste of time.
Tell that to all the dobro players who use that tuning with great success in jazz, blues, country, bluegrass and rock among many. There are far more people using open G tuning than any other non-pedal steel guitar tuning.

Other than Stacy Phillips what others are there?

Ooooohh no the feathers again Brad

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 2 Mar 2016 9:44 am

Ulrich you did phrase your position well though respect.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 2 Mar 2016 10:06 am

Stefan Robertson wrote:
Tell that to all the dobro players who use that tuning with great success in jazz, blues, country, bluegrass and rock among many. There are far more people using open G tuning than any other non-pedal steel guitar tuning.

Other than Stacy Phillips what others are there?

Jazz/Swing? Ickes and Cardine have had recent jazz projects. Billy Cardine's "Six String Swing", all gypsy jazz, is quite a revelation.

Here! is some Billy for you.

Add rock/blues and Douglas (of course), Jay Starling (Love Cannon), Andy Hall (Infamous Stringdusters) come to mind.

I know quite a few strong regional players (including yours truly) that have migrated to more "commercial" genres.

fwiw, the advent of Fishman's Nashville/Aura system really opened up a lot of performance possibilities for dobro.

Want a Strat and dobro in the same band on equal sonic footing? No problemo!

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 2 Mar 2016 10:12 am

Rob Ickes "Song For My Father".

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 2 Mar 2016 10:13 am

I don't play much in G tuning, personally, but it's certainly a versatile tuning for tons of music. My feathers are in no way ruffled but Stefan, open your ears, man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fmnIzF_gH0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqmhPLRoj-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYp3N9alnPE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj8CATycghE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJwVPbozWQQ

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 2 Mar 2016 10:14 am

Stefan needs to make the trip to Nashville for the next edition of ResoSummit as put on by Rob Ickes and company in November, so that he can receive a proper "indoctrination."

And if Open G is only worthwhile if one is a bluegrass dobro player and and otherwise a "waste of time," and the only 6 string lap steel tuning anyone should really consider is C6th, then apparently Andy Volk listed and discussed about 40 tunings too many in his Slide Rules book. It could have been a lot thinner and fit even more conveniently into one's instrument case.

I have a theory that due to the 24/7 information overload of modern times that when one posts a link for members to check out here or on another forum, at most about 10% of the readers will actually go through the trouble of clicking on it because they might be too busy formulating their next post on the topic. Since about a dozen posts have passed without comment from others since I linked Al Perkins playing "Albatross" in Open G, it's likely a fairly safe assumption that barely anyone has bothered to click on it and go to the 32 minute mark it to check it out.

But if you can somehow find it within yourself to go back and take a look and listen, I'd like to know if Al's playing on this number is "a waste of time."

I'll post the link again so that members don't have to go through the heavy work of scrolling up on their computer screen. Hey - I have even advanced the video this time so that you don't have to find the 32:00 minute mark on your own! What could be easier?

https://youtu.be/blV36yj9G5c?t=32m

I see Andy and Howard have posted multiple links to check out while I was composing this post - good luck on getting folks to actually view them! I will take a look now myself...

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 2 Mar 2016 10:22 am

Stefan Robertson wrote:
Other than Stacy Phillips what others are there?

Assuming you're just talking jazz, I'd recommend Rich Arnold, Rob Ickes, Billy Cardine. Check out Bill Frisell and Jerry Douglas, or Bill Frisell and Greg Leisz.

My feathers aren't ruffled, I just think you have a very narrow view of what can be done with this instrument.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 2 Mar 2016 10:28 am

I checked out all the links, and I in fact own every recording except the Jazz dobro guy's stuff, but I have listened to his recordings on YouTube in the past.

I have seen Rob Ickes play Stevie Wonder's "Isn't She Lovely" live on a few different occasions and it's pretty impressive.

We had a similar thread awhile back, and once Stefan jumps back in here he can clarify and go for more feather ruffling, but as I recall his take on Open G for lap steel as that you are leaving too many chords on the table with the tuning.

I understand the point, but what I wrote in that other thread was how often does one need to have all these chords (like the full minors) in a group situation? If you are playing swing or classic Hawaii Calls era Hawaiian music, that's a different deal. But these are specialized genres and let's face it, sort of anachronistic or nostalgic genres of music. And I also wrote something in that thread about not giving up your day job to become a lap steel guitar solo act and "chordal" specialist. A person has to eat and pay the rent.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 2 Mar 2016 10:59 am

i never realized quite how simple 'albatross' was til now.
i can imagine this may be a little counterintuitive to stefan who has implied that you really need 12 strings on a lapsteel to play proper music.

Stephen Abruzzo · Post by **Stephen Abruzzo** » 2 Mar 2016 11:12 am

About a year or two ago, Mike Neer posted a YouTube of some young hotshot playing a Magnatone 6-stringer. The guy was blazingly fast and clear.

I think there is a video of him playing AC-DC's Highway to Hell on the Magnatone with Dobro G tuning IIRC.

Incredible playing.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 2 Mar 2016 11:19 am

chris ivey wrote:i never realized quite how simple 'albatross' was til now.
i can imagine this may be a little counterintuitive to stefan who has implied that you really need 12 strings on a lapsteel to play proper music.

Chris clicked on it...we have a winner!

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 2 Mar 2016 11:21 am

I wonder what the OP is thinking about now...?

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 2 Mar 2016 11:42 am

Terrific clip form Al, Mark, and thanks for the Slide Rules plug!

I often remember my interview with the late steel player Marion Hall, a truly charming person and storyteller. She told me how players would sit three feet in front of Joaquin Murphey as if to absorb his tunings and prowess by osmosis. Marion's quotable quote was:

"It's not in the tuning. It's in the brain"

Certain tunings lend themselves to some music better than others and open G is no exception. But I firmly believe that every tuning has more music in it and can dovetail into more genres of music than they are often credited with. My B11th book was a bit in reaction to players seeming to limit it to a handful of Hawaiian standards. Same with C6th .... yes, it excels for lush, Hawaii calls-style music but heck, it's like an acccordion - you CAN play Lady of Spain on it - it's an instrument - but Walkin After Midnight and Giant Steps is also lurking in there. The main thing is to keep an open mind and keep your ears open!

Oh, and on reflection, I think the advice to dig into Dobro is good advice. It's easier to lighten one's touch than to learn to really dig in later on.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 2 Mar 2016 1:02 pm

Tommy Morrell could put most anyone to shame with his dobro tuned to G. I believe it is a great tuning for those extremely familiar with standard guitar. You can play anything on it, just not big chords.