6 string pedal steels?

[Charlie McDonald]

Good argument, Dave.
I see the 6-string as a development guitar also with good reasons for an introductory market.
B0b's 6-string I thought was a viable solution.

There's no question that to be really good at PSG, you need the full complement of strings, including middle and hi F#s.
On a 3x4 six string, lowering G#->F# on a pedal replacing the C pedal, it's an easy V chord, something that would interest
a guitar player, who could easily be lured by this forum to follow the right path. Listen to great players, the rewards are obvious.

An easier entry into the sport of pedal steel has its appeal.

We're all fishing, it's a lure.

[Dave Mudgett]

You should play what you want. It doesn't really matter what anybody else thinks if you know your own mind. So just do it.

With that said - I would not recommend that a beginning player that actually wants to play "pedal steel", as opposed to a basically tricked-out lap steel with a couple of pedals, start with a 6-string guitar. No problem if that's what you want to do, but it's not really a full "pedal steel" in the context of the way the instrument has evolved. There are a lot of things you can't do with that setup - to my mind it foregoes a lot of the things that make pedal steel a "pedal steel".

On string spacing - again, if what you want is to take a more straight-steel approach where slants are extremely important, great. Personally, I find even a 6-string lap steel does have limitations - great, and even preferable to me for certain things like rock and blues - look at someone like David Lindley. I use them sometimes, and also play a lot of slide guitar. But I think 8 strings on a steel is much more versatile, if you care about that. And I also think one can easily get plenty wide string spacing on an 8-string, and I think if one were to put 10 strings on a 12-string-width changer, the spacing could be made pretty comfortable and wide. I think at least 8 strings for a pedal steel makes sense and can be done easily and comfortably in terms of string spacing. You'd lose a few things from standard 10-string, but it's a big step up from 6, IMHO. Sneaky Pete did his entire thing on a Fender 400.

Dave D. mentions "that unison lick" - well, those contrary-motion phrases in the line of the "Emmons Cross" and others like it are part of the defining sound of classic pedal steel. Your audience may not know or care about the technique, but if you can't do them - well, there's a big chunk of the kind of thing that really distinguishes the pedal steel. I think many people notice and mention those cool contrary-motion phrases. They don't know (or care) what they are, but they notice what they sound like.

I also think that it's a false choice to insist that your only choice is either a crappy Maverick or Red Baron versus a 6-string pedal steel. I see used professional-grade 10-string 3+3 or 3+4 steels in the $1000 type of range here pretty frequently. I had a BMI that I bought for less than that, and there are some good choices in a new or used starter steel for fairly cheap money now. MSA, Dekley, and the modern starter steels also come to mind. I look at the stuff Jimmie Hudson is building and I just don't think it's tough or expensive to get something with more than 6 strings. By all means go for a 6-string if that's what you want, but it is not the only affordable, quality way to go.

One thing I can say for sure. If you decide to settle on 6 strings, there are a bunch of things you won't be able to do. That's no skin offa' my nose, nor should it be offa' anybody else's nose here. But I think having options is good. I also think that if one aspires to be able to do a standard 10-string down the road, it is not only a false economy to start out with 6, but will probably ingrain some very bad habits that will be hard to undo when making the transition to 10 string E9. Those out-of-order strings are there for a reason, and if you're gonna want to deal with a standard 10 or 12 string string spacing - well, you might as well start working on those issues right from the start. Even the process of learning to deal with narrower spacing, skipped-string grips, and avoiding the out-of-order and non-open-chord strings are learned skills that take plenty of time.

Again - do what you want, no recriminations from me. Just some caveats.

[Calvin Walley]

does anyone have a list of mfg of six shooters ?
i know of hudsons but someone mentioned Jerry Fessenden
where can i find Jerrys'
i would like to see his and others

[Tommi Toijonen]

does anyone have a list of mfg of six shooters ?
i know of hudsons but someone mentioned Jerry Fessenden
where can i find Jerrys'
i would like to see his and others

Found this:
http://www.fessendensteelguitars.com/guitars.html

But I think two pedals may not be enough for me. My problem (if it is a problem really) is the strings, not the pedals or levers (well, the LKL is quite quirky, but I see its potential).

And these:
http://hudsonsteelguitars.com/t/guitars

And WBS from Germany

http://www.pedalsteelguitars.de

[Alan Brookes]

Most of the steel sound that we love is played on the first few strings. You can have a 6, 8,10 or 12 string guitar, but most of the work is not done on the bottom strings.

Looking back at the E9 tuning, it was Buddy Emmons who split the A and B pedals, which were originally on the same pedal, and it was Buddy who added the top two re-entrant strings, which meant that you now needed to have a D10 instead of a D8. Plenty of good music was created before that, and none of us is a Buddy Emmons. A simple guitar doesn't need those advances.

I'm not saying that those changes didn't increase the versatility of the instrument. Indeed, a lot of today's riffs depend on them. I'm just saying that the steel guitar is still a magnificent instrument without those extra complications.

I, myself, play mostly non-pedal C6. When I do play E9 pedal I find myself using the A and B pedals together most of the time, and rarely using the first two strings. I don't think I'm unusual in that. I'm like most pedal steel players, but most of them don't like to admit it.

[Calvin Walley]

thanks for the links Tommi

nice looking guitars , wish they had a photo of the German one tho

Alan ,

you are soooo very right !!!

most of the so called required pedals / levers are nothing more than show
and a few professions musicians personal preference
and most of that comes from copying someone that they liked

look at any pedal steel guitar in existence and you will clearly see wear on the A & B pedals ,
the knee E raise and lowers and nowhere else !!!

[Tommi Toijonen]

thanks for the links Tommi

nice looking guitars , wish they had a photo of the German one thou

No prob:

http://www.pedalsteelguitars.de/the-six ... r/galerie/

[Jerry Overstreet]

Tommi, here's an older thread from the archives with more discussion re: 6 stringers. http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... r&start=25 [FWIW guys, Six Shooter is a brand name owned by Fessenden.]

I'm still examining possibilities on my Cougar 6 string 4+4 which has been pushed to the back burner for the time being due to other pressing family matters etc., but I fully intend to pursue it in the very near future. I don't want it to be an abbreviated version of the 10 string E9 tuning....I just want it to be a pedal steel capable of changing strings regardless of tuning etc.

Where is it written that one must follow the path already taken? Where is it written that you have to play country music on a pedal steel? I hate that everybody wants to pigeonhole the instrument.

If you consider the things that guitar players can do with a 6 string fixed tuning, in any genre, imagine what others can be done applying string pulls to that.

I took a page from Mr. Bill Hatcher's standard 6 underarm tuning and am applying changes to that. His tuning and a clip of his fabulous blues work is in the attached link. Also check out the brilliant ideas of our leader b0b regarding 6 tunings etc.

My point is that you can make music out of any configuration and/or tuning. You may have to go it on your own as precedents may be hard to come by, but if you are determined and creative, your goals can be realized.
That's my Cougar below, thanks David for the pic, a 4th pedal has since been added 2 spaces to the rt.

[Dave Dube]

Well Dave M. you made one very good point. If you want to play a standard 10 string PSG you will need to get used to the string spacing sooner or later so why not now? If you want to play any used or new 10 string that comes by, you will need that, though it isn't an insurmountable thing. Moreover you ought to balance that against all that you will learn that is useful and which directly translates to the 10 string, before you dissmiss the 6 string out of hand.

I am not selling snake oil or trying to lead people astray. I play a 6 have played my share of 10s and even a bit of lap and dobro. I think I've paid enough dues to have an opinion, which is based on experience.

If you are coming from lap steel or a 6 string (or 8 string for that matter) you may be accustomed to wide spacing. If I was looking for a 10 string, I wouldn't seriously consider buying a 12 string to set up as a 10. I would buy a new 10 string and request the wide spacing option. There are makers that will provide it. The instrument is still changing.

You pointed out that the steel guitar evolved. Evolution is not infallible. The only reason you have those chromatic strings on top is because Buddy moved them there from the bottom. The only reason you have the tight string spacing is because Buddy said they added the strings but didn't change the fretboard. Pretty arbitrary stuff. Buddy could play that standing on his head but he was phenomenal, and I don't think anyone will argue with that. Up to that point the strings were spaced wider. They still can be if you ask for it.

So then playing the 6 does not a have to be a false economy at all, but rather an economical trainer. It just depends on how you want to see it and what you want to do.

Dave you allude to the "things that make a pedal steel a pedal steel" but you don't really elaborate. So you kind of beg the question there. You aren't really saying anything with that. It kind of conjures bogey men for newbies to be afraid of. There's nothing scarier than your own imagination and the unknown, LOL. I kind of think that a 6 banger has most of that stuff that makes "a pedal steel a pedal steel."

The fuss about the unison lick is kind of silly. A three-second lick that goes by before most of the people in the room even realize they heard it. You can't be playing that all night either, so that's just a fleeting part of the night and sure doesn't define it. You want to worry about that, be my guest. We will just have to agree to disagree about how much it matters to the casual listener since there is no way to prove it anyway.

You talk about bad habits and lost opportunities but again more question begginng. Sounds like you might be referring to string spacing again and using grips that avoid certain strings. Actually most of the time I have to avoid string 7 because I don't want every chord to be a 9th or a 6th, and when I was tuning 8 down to D I had to be careful to avoid string 4 and also had to learn to feel and hear the half pedal, so I think a 6 string can prepare one for that too.

Nobody said that a 6 string is better or equal to a 10 string. It obviously isn't with the exception of string spacing which I've already mentioned. However you see the cup half empty and ignore the fact that its half full. Actually I think it is more than half full. I really don't think a "tricked out lap steel" is an accurate description at all. YMMV.

I was not setting up a "false choice" with the example but rather citing a common occurence. You set the price point at $1000 yourself. When most other instruments have entry prices at a hundred dollars or less it is not surprising that PSG doesn't appeal to young people and maybe that has something to do with why it is getting scarce on recordings. They can all relate to a guitar though...seems to me one of those session players in Nashville said sometimes the producer asks him to sound like a guitar...and I recall Lloyd Green saying he walked out on a session because he was asked to sound less like a PSG. What do you expect when you make them grow up without a chance to play them or know someone who does?

So if a 6 string gets them playing for little more than half the cost, it becomes a much more attractive proposition for a beginner. It's more fun to be playing than wishing you were. Maybe we can at least agree on that.

(Hey and let's not forget that the instrument is only half the equation! They still have to learn how to get "that sound." LOL. If you think that is ONLY in the hands, let's just disagree now and skip it. ;^)

Alan +1 What you said! Thanks. That's just what I have observed looking at tabs and listening and playing over the years.

[Calvin Walley]

Jerry

thats a lot of good information

i just always thought the term "six shooter" was a generic term BUT now i stand corrected


by the way ...beautiful guitar !!!!

[Jerry Overstreet]

Thank you Calvin. The Cougar guitars were built by the late Freeman Cowgar. They are very quality built and have a universal changer so that one can put any changes on it they desire. This one has a Wilkinson tele type pickup. It sounds good and plays nicely. I love the little guitar and am anxious to get re-acquainted and begin experimenting with it again soon as things settle down.

[Calvin Walley]

Jerry

can you tell us why the pick up is angled ?

[Jerry Overstreet]

Well, I got it second hand so I can only surmise that it is to mimic the bridge pickup of a tele. I have since straightened it up. Freeman placed a second screw so that it could be positioned either way. To be honest, I haven't spent enough time with it to say which position works best....or have forgotten.

All this chatter about sixes makes me want to get back to work on mine.


Edit:I believe I was incorrect concerning the changer capability in the earlier post. I think technically a universal changer is 3R and 3L. This one is 3R and 2L.

[Damir Besic]

music has absolutely nothing to do with number of strings, pedals and knee levers, you can play just as much music on 6 string as you would on 10 or 12..it is up to you, your talent, and creativity... 6 string pedal steel, is just as real or serious instrument as is 10 string... you can either play the thing, or you can't...




S8 4+5 , to me this is just as serious of the instrument as any other 10,12 or 14 string steel...




set up, and configured by Craig Holden, this little monster is a piece of art... little bigger then my brief case, this guitar will make as much music as any other out there..

[Donny Hinson]

The number of strings, pedals and levers is limiting, but only in the mind of the player. You see, I've heard several players here say that you need this many strings, pedals, and levers to be "musically complete".

Well, personally, I think that they should spend some time listening to Joaquin Murphy!

[Damir Besic]

https://youtu.be/H0LyIOOM9I0

[Dave Mudgett]

I never dismissed 6 strings or said that it wasn't valid. I never argued you couldn't make lots of great music on 8 strings or 6 strings. I gave examples. I play 6 strings plenty - standard guitar, slide guitar, and lap steel. If you want 6 strings, go for it. That is what I said. You don't need my permission or anybody else's.

But I stand on the ideas that:

1. Pedal steel evolved to 10 strings or more for a reason. If you gave me a choice between a 6-stringer for, let's say, $600-700 plus or minus $100 versus a solid used or one of the many fine newer starter 10-string E9 steels for $900-1000 plus or minus $100, I'll go for the 10-banger any day, at least for PEDAL steel;

2. A lot of the really gorgeous E9 stuff that turns a lot of peoples' heads occurs on those "odd" strings - i.e., strings 1, 9, and especially 2. But to go even further, I frankly find it limiting for many things I do to even be limited to the low B on 10-string E9 - you can't even get down to low E on a guitar. Only going down to E above low-E on guitar? Chuck Berry chunka-chunka rhythm? Forget about it. Padding in the low register? Forget about it. Of course, not everybody cares about that. No problem. But even if I was looking for a rock and roll machine that could also do meat-and-potatoes standard pedal steel moves, I'd want E, B, E, G#, B, E, G# low-to-high, with the low E = low E on guitar: 7 strings. If you stuck the normal D# above high-G#, suddenly the Emmons Cross and some of those other nice contrary-motion moves are available. That's 8 strings. For me, personally, that's the minimum I'd go for or recommend to anybody else. Just my opinion.

3. I really think that if you want to ultimately do 10 (or more) string pedal steel with, let's say, a standard E9 type of tuning where you need to develop skipped-string grips, re-entrant strings, and so on, then it's better to start with that off the bat to instill those habits and muscle memory as early as possible.

If I was looking for a 10 string, I wouldn't seriously consider buying a 12 string to set up as a 10. I would buy a new 10 string and request the wide spacing option.

That's what I was suggesting - get 12-string type spacing with a 10-string changer. That way you'd get wider spacing but the grips would still be manageable.

It doesn't bother me a whit if people do different stuff. 40+ years ago, I'd have been thrilled with anything with pedals - I was a poor student. But at this point in time, the full monty is available for very reasonable money. $1000 in 2016 dollars is about $187 in 1973 dollars. I couldn't touch the crappiest Maverick for that kind of money back then - I looked and they were about $450, which is about $2400 in 2016 dollars. We never had it so good as we do now.

As far as the distinction between guitar and steel prices - I'm very into guitars, and a seriously solid 6-string guitar is about $600-1000 and they go up fast from there. Even a basic new Mexi standard Strat is about $500 MAP. Yeah, if you hunt hard, you can do better. But when you think about what goes into a pedal steel, $1000 is a great bargain for a solid instrument. And if you hunt hard, it is possible to do better.

But each of us can and should do what we want. This is just a discussion. And I agree that some pedal steel is better than no pedal steel. But if people want to talk about one approach, it invites discussion about different approaches.

[Calvin Walley]

my goal is to get the guy/gal that has never touched
a pedal steel
past all the preconceptions that many on the forum seem to spout and get their butts
in the seat playing !!!
the forum was started ( and correct me if i'm wrong B0b )
to get more people involved with the pedal steel
and promote the exchange of information regarding all thing's steel guitar
but a lot of people on the forum have egos the
size of texas and that tends to restrict to flow of some information
personally i don't care if some is playing
a cigar box with 2 pedals on it !!
as long as they are having fun plucking string's

[Mike Perlowin]

I can't play Firebird Suite. You can and you DO need the whole package. Your needs are determined by decisions you made over the years. You did not need everything when you first started. I am not going to play Firebird suite any time soon and the people that listen to me play won't mind that either, so my needs are not the same as yours. A beginner's needs are even less.

Actually Dave, it's just the opposite. I play all that classical stuff I do on the same tuning I played during the years I gigged in country bands. I didn't change my steel to accommodate the music, I adapted the music so it could be played on what I already had.

It's a 12 string tuned (low to high,) B. E, G#, B, E. F#, G#, B, E, G#, C#, F#. I use the 3 standard E9 pedals, as well as a zero pedal that drops the G#s to G natural,) and the standard knee lever changes. The only things that are different about my setup is that I tune the 2nd string to C#, and raise it to D# on my RKL and D natural on my RKR. The RKR also drops my 8th string to D. Thus I'm using 2 different knee levers for the 2nd string, which necessitated the infamous wrist lever.

I'm not saying you need a 10 or 12 string steel to play the Firebird Suite, (although you do.) I'm saying you need 10 strings to play country.

[Charlie McDonald]

That's a beauty, Damir.

Here's the link to Bill Hatcher's Lonestar 6.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKdeid_ ... re=mh_lolz

There are further interesting comments on the thread, including some I-take-it-backs.

[Lane Gray]

my goal is to get the guy/gal that has never touched
a pedal steel
past all the preconceptions that many on the forum seem to spout and get their butts
in the seat playing !!!

But what if they come to you with a 6 stringer and a bunch of the Alan Jackson stuff with Paul?
Yes, there's a crapton of music on 6/2/1, but if you're wanting to play what you hear on 10/3/4, there's a crapton missing.
To some people, the crapton that's there is more important.
To some people, the crapton that's missing is frustrating in its missingness.

[Calvin Walley]

Lane

if they are a total newbe playing that is waaaaay beyond their skill level
and they won't be able to play it on ANY guitar teach them to crawl before they walk

this forum is notorious for telling people how to play things years beyond their ability
simply be honest with them and tell them to practice the fundamentals because for the first couple
of years they aren't going to be able to play eveything that they hear pro's play

[Charlie McDonald]

Well, I think I begin to get Calvin's thinking, including the polls, with a focus on whatever would make it easier for folks to get guitar.
I think it's a germane issue, as it's something that would likely go beyond six-string PSGs. Just my guess what guitarists would want to do.

[Don Walworth]

One of the best series of posts in a while. I've been very careful in reading them all and can fully see each persons point of view.
I just purchased my 6 string pedal (2F 2K)from Mr. Hudson in December (My Christmas gift to me). I'm a firm believer in K.I.S.S. (Keeping it simple) and this looked like the way to go FOR ME. I had been behind a regular 10 string PSG before (12-15 yrs ago at the St. Louis Steel Show) and did not fit well at any of them; they were too low for my legs. Mr. Hudson made my guitar to fit me (yes, I know that guitars can be adjusted - know it now but not when I was in St. Louis). I had some picks I purchased in St. Louis and found out most of my picking was "fingers stuck between strings". Wide spacing on Mr. Hudson's guitar solves that issue for me. I have no desire to play like...(fill in the blank).. most of my interest in playing is here at home and maybe play behind my wife as she plays (accomplished accordion player). I do wonder if it would solve the issue if a new player purchased a 'standard' PSG -10 strings 3P 4K and removed strings 1-2-9 and 10 and only used the left knee lever? And add strings as needed and ability grew? I have plenty on my plate with what I have and I'm enjoying it and that is the bottom line; a new player that is enjoying learning. But I'm only 80 yrs young; what do I know?
See y'all in Dallas!
Don

[Lane Gray]

Calvin, we all have different approaches and experiences.
For a lot of us, as soon as we could handle one knee, the rest made sense and were wanted. I've mentioned before that the guitars I started on were loaners arranged by my teacher. The first two weeks were on a 3/1 Emmons student model. Gave it back to its owner as soon be as the next one was available, a 3/4 LDG. I'd have gone NUTS staying on the one. I knew what I wanted to get out of it, and that meant dropping 6 and raising 4&8 at least. And it also needed those chromatic strings.
I'm not convinced that the 6 string makes an entry to the pedal steel, but it's a cool tool for a different job.