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Topic: Twin Reverb not so clean |
Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 8:13 am |
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Hi, I have a Fender Twin Reverb 1971 with 2 reconed JBL K-120. I have always love the sound but these days I focus more on the tone since I have some recording to do and I realized that my Twin is never really clean! The volume start at about 2.5, between 2.5 and 3 the tone is bad, it have some distortion and the high frequency are not very present. From 3 to 5 the little distortion is still their but the frequency jump better, I get all the range and the high are clean and round but when I do chords and use pedals with 2-3 strings the compression and distortion appear. At more than 5 its just overdrive!
I wounder if its the nature of a Twin, you expect it to be loud, and it is with guitar but not really with steel? I ear this same kind of thing in Lloyd Green and Ralph Mooney sound, which are my favorite player so I guess I should be happy but I still wounder if its normal.
Maybe my speaker dont work well?
I made a little demo, its with my Fender 1000 E9 neck, volume at 4, bass at 6, mid at 6 and high at 5, bight switch off.
https://soundcloud.com/jeansgauthier/steeltwin/s-ZS3vh |
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Don Mogle
From:
Round Rock, TX, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 8:47 am TR Issues
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J-S,
I'm not sure if there are any electronic issues with your TR, but here is a thread with settings used by Forum members using the TR for steel. You might try out some of these settings to see if there is any difference.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=152097
I've been using, and really like, Ricky Davis' TR settings for the most part with my new (to me) Pawn Shop TR.
I've heard that amps sound different just like guitars, so these settings will possibly need some tweaking to suit your ears.
Hope this helps!
Don
Last edited by Don Mogle on 20 Feb 2016 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 9:03 am
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| Im going to my studio and try settings! thanks. |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 9:17 am
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| I think I will buy and try a Sica 15 Neo to see the difference. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 9:44 am
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And...exactly when was the last time you had the tubes and coupling caps replaced, and had the bias checked? Tube amps that are a half-century old need regular maintenance to perform "as new".  |
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Don Mogle
From:
Round Rock, TX, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 9:45 am TR Issues
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Great! Let me know how these work out.
As you see, there are differences between people, but at least this will get you going. Eventually, you'll be able to dial-in your sound.
Don |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 9:49 am
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Wow, ok now I get my tone!!!
I put the mid at 0 like Ricky Davis suggest, I have never realized how much mid a twin have in the mix, any had of with the knob give a muddier sound. So Mid at 0, treble at 4 and bass at 5.
Also, the more important, I leave the volume pedal at 50%. That way the tone stay clean and I can get ton of sustain using the other 50%!!!
Im done! Thanks! Love my twin again!! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 10:18 am
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Odd. On my Twins, I find a pleasing tone with bass fairly high, mids below bass, highs below mids
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Don Mogle
From:
Round Rock, TX, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 10:43 am TR Issues
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J-S,
Glad you were able to work it out.
Remember what Donny said about biasing the amp. This topic on biasing the amp was also talked about in the post I inserted. The speaker break-in time is an important factor in addition to making sure the bias is not set too cold.
It's easy to unplug the 12" JBLs (although I bet these sound fantastic) in order to try out a 15" driver. However, if you don't already own a 15" speaker, it might be more advantageous to let someone look at the electronics and tweak the amp to your taste...just a thought.
One final thing, a lot of guys run the volume wide open at 10. This is a good idea too!
Take Care,
Don
Last edited by Don Mogle on 20 Feb 2016 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 10:44 am
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Gee, I always wondered what those knobs were for.  |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 12:02 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| And...exactly when was the last time you had the tubes and coupling caps replaced, and had the bias checked? Tube amps that are a half-century old need regular maintenance to perform "as new". |
Yes the amp just been checked by a very good tech and he replaced some caps.
The thing I didn't mention is that I had a pickup to my Fender pedal steel and both pickup together give a very strong signal! |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 12:07 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Odd. On my Twins, I find a pleasing tone with bass fairly high, mids below bass, highs below mids |
Thats how I used to tune my amps so I had this setup all the time thinking its the best but the 0 mid setup surprise me! I just never tough it would sound good so I didn't tried it before.
Really, for the sound Im looking, the mid at 0 and the volume pedal at 50% is the key. I dont need to buy another amp or speaker!
Thanks guy you save me lots of money and time!
Last edited by Jean-Sebastien Gauthier on 20 Feb 2016 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 3:15 pm
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| Glad to hear you are keeping the JBLs - they are wonderful in a Twin Reverb. The Fender 1000 pickup can be a bit harsh. Reducing the midrange helps to clear it up. I think most players agree that 50% on the volume pedal is about right. |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 5:31 pm
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Thanks Tim, I think I will simply admit I have the perfect setup and start getting tone from my hands! No more equipment excuses!
Yes Fender pickup can be harsh, they all sound great but the Fender pedal steel pickup are to much agressive to me. I mean, I love old Fender pedal steel recordings and want a little bit of this tone but for the current projects I have its to much. The solution I found its to had Sentell pickups to my short scale Fender 1000, I wired them like a stringmaster with a blend control so I keep the Fender tone I like but with more body, more bass and humbucking!
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2016 6:40 pm
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| That looks very nice Jean-Sebastien! I am looking into some replacement pickups for my Fender 1000, but more like the sound of Bigsby steel guitar pickups. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 21 Feb 2016 2:24 am
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Also keep in mind that each of these Fender amps which tout X wattage are based on strong knob settings in the tone stack. Many folks look at Fender amps with Treb, Mid and Bass knobs...well yeh, they have knobs but that is an active tone stack, based on where you set those little knobs, the entire stack EQ can be subtracted or additive. Then the final output is also effected. Now add that if the power supply is not up to snuff (new caps) or the power tubes are not efficient or biased properly , the amp will not perform as expected.
remember, these amps are spec'd with everything in top performance, the tone stack near the top of it's range, (if not dimed) new caps, new tubes,proper bias etc...If we are running Twins at a volume of 3 to 5 , tone stack near 50% of it's range, power tubes not fresh and not biased , you are not running an 85 to 100 watt amp.
regarding BIAS, the older Twins had a balance pot, not a BIAS pot for the outputs. Then they added a HUM balance which was an add-on to the balance circuit. I am not certain about the TR-RI, I have never had one apart.
This is called FIXED BIAS.
On the old NONE RI amps, the HUM pot was accessible from the tube side of the chassis, the balance pot on the circuit side. Place a meter on pin 5 of the output tubes ( screen resistor 1.5K) turn the pot and get them as close as you could. Its MV not volts...The so called purpose of the HUM pot was to reduce the overall HUM ( listen) when the tubes got older and getting farther away from each other in efficiency. If the pot was all the way to one end that was supposed to mean your tubes are done .
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 3:51 pm
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As an updated, my Twin finally had a ground problem! The EQ section was bypass I think and it was like if all knob was to 10 or something like that.
Now it fixed and I take the time to find the best EQ.
I put some music from my phone to the input to hear the EQ working, interestingly my favorite EQ with the music is the same as with my steel. Its the setup that offer the best tonal range with all frequency present and beautiful.
I now have a full, rounded, lound and clean sound! Amazing, Im so happy I didnt bouth another amp or speaker!
So the EQ is, treble 5, mid 10 and bass 6. Bright switch off.
Its weird because the mid sound good at 0 and 9-10, between its muddy, at 0 its clean but it lack of some presence and at 9-10 some frequencies just come to live and add lots of definition! I guess these old amp are all different! |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 4:06 pm
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I run my twin, which is a 70 or 71 with K120s, at 3 to 4 on treble, 8 to 9 on mids, and 3 to 4 on bass, bright switch off. I like to set the volume at 6 or higher, but that's often too loud.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 5:07 pm
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Yes Paul its the kind of setup mine work good too. I realized that is a very strange amp to setup, its like tuning a banjo where you tuned a string and it detuned the others! I tried all combinations, the high and bass are pretty straight forward and linear but the mid is weird, maybe it not on the right frequency range for my steel, but like I said on 9 it start to add a new frequency range and then I got all the range of my instrument.
My Fender 1000 sound very good so I dont think I have to boost or hide some frequencies, just have to be sure they all there and in equal volume. Like I said I tried with music (Sturgill Simpson's High Top Mountain to be exact) and I came with the same setup!
Its like it supposed to be, clean, loud, round and with the great warm tone and light compression of tube!
The moral of this story to me is know your gear and be sure your vintage amp work properly before saying its not a good amp! A 1971 Twin Reverb with K-120s is a hell of a amp!!!! |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 5:13 pm
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A friend of mine's Twin has been giving him problems too. His also distorts early. I've had it apart three times lately fixing various things. It's still not right.
The treemelo ticked - rerouted and shield its' wires. A 12AT7 tube was bad. All tubes test fine now. I fixed a broken reverb wire connection on the back panel. These things are to be expected with a 35 year old amp I suppose.
I'm pretty sure the waveform shouldn't be visibly distorted at 25 watts like I see on the O-scope. I'm going to take another stab at it. I'm thinking it's output tube bias current. That's the one thing I didn't check because you have to fenagle a way to measure it by inserting some impedance or something - hassle. It's also possible my tube tester really doesn't simulate the real situation and maybe all the tubes should be replaced - $! |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 6:08 pm
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Jean-Sebastien, it sounds like you're headed in the right direction, but you might enjoy reading this:
This link has been posted here before but it's a good read for anyone who uses one of these contraptions. The tone stack in a conventional tube amp doesn't necessarily work the way we might intuitively think it does/should. It sounds like you've already discovered that running the tone controls in the higher ends of their ranges (particularly the mid control) can give you much greater control over the amp's 'real' tone, clearer highs and overtones, and in general a much cleaner output. |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 7:35 pm
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Wow thanks Ian for the link! That's explain why I get more clarity and better tonal range with mid at 9!!
So I guess to my now it's mid at 9 or 10 and set high and bass depending of the room!
I learned a lot from you guys! It will help me a lot for my next gigs! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Feb 2016 8:00 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
| Also keep in mind that each of these Fender amps which tout X wattage are based on strong knob settings in the tone stack. Many folks look at Fender amps with Treb, Mid and Bass knobs...well yeh, they have knobs but that is an active tone stack, based on where you set those little knobs, the entire stack EQ can be subtracted or additive. Then the final output is also effected. |
Well, no...not exactly. The tone stack is a purely passive network, in that it doesn't really "add" anything, gain-wise, it merely attenuates certain frequencies to provide a desired response. But, you're right about the tone settings affecting the output, which they will if any of the controls is set quite low.  |
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John Limbach
From:
Billings, Montana, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2016 8:27 am
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I read, and read lots about tone stack design and application and even struggled through some of the mathematical proofs, but I didn't really put it all together until I downloaded the Duncan Amp tone stack calculator. It defaults to the Fender Tone Stack and you can vary the bass, treble, and mid controls and watch how they interact. It was a lot easier for me to grasp when I saw it graphically. So, if you know which freq you want to notch and which to boost, you can get an actual setting for each control to use as a starting point and then tweak by ear.
http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/ |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2016 10:48 am
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| Jean-Sebastien Gauthier wrote: |
...
The moral of this story to me is know your gear and be sure your vintage amp work properly before saying its not a good amp! A 1971 Twin Reverb with K-120s is a hell of a amp!!!! |
A guy I know once threw out a Twin on trash day - he bought some solid state piece of junk to replace it. I almost cried!
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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