Working Without Pay

[T. C. Furlong]

Don,

You can sometimes read on a corporation's website about what their values are. I'd play for several including REI for example. They list what they call "Our Priorities". Good folks doing good things... I'd first do some research but I'd probably play for Whole Foods, Patagonia, Google, Starbucks and others. I wouldn't play for Monsanto, Dow Chemical and the like.

[chris ivey]

google....starbucks......wha??

starbucks priced me out of their world due to their greed years ago!!

so i don't get that.

[Herb Steiner]

TC
FYI, the Whole Foods Market from 30 years ago is no longer what it used to be (health food for cool people); around here it's now called "health food for rich people."

Witness the lawsuit just settled in NYC regarding overcharging by WFC in that city, with abject apologies by the management.

Not that it's not still a great store, it is; but hey, they can afford to pay any and all musicians that work for them, whether or not the musicians shop there anymore, and few I know still do.

[Steve Spitz]

Some benefits have a healthy budget, and expect to pay the band. I like to do nice things for people, but it's easier when they expect to pay for their fundraiser.

That being said, I remember a time or two looking around at a function, and wondering who was getting paid, and who was donating their time. It often seemed like the musicians were the only ones asked to work for free.

What many organizers don't understand, is you may be giving up a date, where a last minute well paying gig might add on to your calendar. It happens.

[Keith Murrow]

I can only offer this from the perspective of a weekend bar band musician, but after over 30 years, I can't think of one time when a band I was playing with got even one paying job from doing a free performance. As others have pointed out, what I HAVE seen are more requests for more free performances. So, as far as I can tell, "exposure" in the context of free or charitable performances has little or no real economic value, at least in the small-time world I have played in.

I am fine with helping out a good cause, but I consider it a donation to a charity. Promoters who try to "sell" a non-paying performance as being somehow economically beneficial to the band are just blowing smoke.

[Don R Brown]

On other words, once you start giving somebody something for nothing, they expect you to continue handing it to them. I fully understand!

[Jeff Bollettino]

I hope all this bitterness doesn't come out in the music.

[Mark van Allen]

I just read Graham Cochrane's Recording Revolution blog this morning where he was discussing pricing your work with budding engineers, one of whom said, "I don't know if I'm good enough to charge yet." I found his answer enlightening:

Do you have something of value to add to the client? That's the only question that matters.

Pretty germaine to this discussion as well.

[Ollin Landers]

OK.

So I'm not a professional musician. I tell people I'm a Semi-Pro musician, that's means I semi-get paid.

I've been known to barter for goods or services for a gig in lieu of money.

I'll play a free gig only if it's for a worthy cause and no one else is getting paid.

IMHO playing what should be a paying gig for free is just not right. I think it sets a precedent that says it's OK if musicians don't get payed. Even a semi-get paid one.

I'm more than happy to play a gig for small amounts of money if;

1) I can at least make enough to cover my gas to and from the gig

2) After gas money I have enough to buy dinner (even if its a cheap burger)

3) I enjoy playing the type of music with the type of people I like and it can be fun (no stress)

I was at a fellow musicians house once when his wife got a call about his band doing a free gig.

Her response was "H*** No!"

"My husband has been known to play some rough places he had to fight his way in and when he was done fight his way out."

But He Got Paid!

[Charlie McDonald]

I hope all this bitterness doesn't come out in the music.

This is a good place to air grievances.
Appearances aren't everything.
Don't believe everything you hear.

You and I may not have many grievances about this subject.
Feel free to air your grievances about the grievances.
Or we talk. Hi, Jeff, how ya doin'?

[Jeff Bollettino]

This is a good place to air grievances.

You're right Charlie, I should not be critical of the aggrieved. Usually I enjoy a good rant.

Feel free to air your grievances about the grievances.

Thank you, I think they're all in my previous posts in this thread, or perhaps between the lines.

Or we talk. Hi, Jeff, how ya doin'?

I'm good. I have my first PSG lesson this Friday and I am both excited and worried. Perhaps someday I'll be good enough to play for free. Or not.

[Charlie McDonald]

I know what you mean. I'd love to be good enough to play for free. At present I'd be playing for embarrassment.
First lesson would be pretty exciting.

[Jeff Bollettino]

10 strings, 4 pedals, what could go wrong?

[Steve Spitz]

When I was trying to learn this instrument, I would have done it without pay just for the bandstand time. Just to become a better player more quickly.

Although I was fortunate and got paying gigs way before I was ready, if you value the opportunity to learn, then you are receiving something of great value. You may not get paid, but if you're passionate about learning to play, you are getting something of value for your time.

I could see that as a great situation for someone looking to learn.

I told my story about playing gigs before I was ready to Jeff Newman. He cut me off, and said " Don't wait till you're ready , you'll never be ready"

[Roger Rettig]

Steve:

I got the same advice. I was a professional guitarist when I took up steel and I was, like most steel-guitar beginners, stumbling around in the dark.

My good friend Gerry Hogan gave me some pointers and was generally very helpful, but the best tip he gave me was: "Take your steel out on your next gig and play along with the band - jump in at the deep end!"

He was right, of course, even if, on that 'next gig', I was unlucky enough to discover that none other than Buddy Emmons happened to be in the room. Fortunately I didn't find that out until I'd finished the set and 'E' was kindness personified. He offered lots of encouragement even if listening to me must have been something of a trial for him.

[Don R Brown]

Your first gig on stage with the steel, with Big E in attendance. Roger, it doesn't get any more "deep end" than that!

[T. C. Furlong]

Herb, I did read about Whole Foods and the overcharging in NYC... coincidentally, I just saw on the news tonight that they will soon open a store in the most dangerous neighborhood in Chicago - Englewood . They are doing their part to get quality food to what is known as a food desert. For my money, that's really stepping up. I don't know if I'd be comfortable playing at their grand opening, but I'd probably do it if it was during daylight hours.

[Charlie McDonald]

10 strings, 4 pedals, what could go wrong?

Several levers.

There is an opportunity in playing for free for a steel player (or any musician stepping off into the deep end).

I played lap steel (a Fender Kingman on a strap) for the Honky Dreads. There was no better way to get started, in fact, no other way
as they were making no money singing about world peace and feeding the masses, a rolling benefit and counterculture sideshow .
Revolutionaries usually aren't funded. It was hardly paying dues, it was on-the-job training. What other benefit is needed sometimes?

[Don R Brown]

Charlie, as much as I'd love more experience, I don't think I could go that far!

[Charlie McDonald]

It's not for everyone. But it was fun.

[chuck lemasters]

I am in agreement with most about not playing freebees except benefits, etc. A year or two ago an old band mate called and asked if I would be interested in playing a jam session at a local animal club. Most of the people involved were folks I had played with at one time or another in the last forty years, and most of them I seldom see anymore. I agreed, loaded my gear, drove in, and lo and behold, it was a regular club event, complete with dancing crowd. "Boys, we can't pay you, but you can have all the beer you want to drink"...I think I had one coke that evening. I refused subsequent "jams" on the no pay/no play principle. Same ex-band mate called this morning wanting me to play again later this month. I feel like I owe it to old friends to show up and play with them. Most of them played in bands for years, don't any more, and it is a loose jam, early hours, relaxed atmosphere, no expectations. It bothers me to play in a place that used to hire bands, but if I stay home, I'm spiting no one but myself.

[John De Maille]

Chuck,
I can understand your plight. I would have to think deeply on the subject, myself. But, if the club is making a habit of scheduling " jams", I'd opt out. It's nice to get together with old picking buddies and enjoy the music and memories, but, not with someone else profiting off the scene. That's how it always starts. If you were a flute player or harmonica player, then, by all means truck yourself down with your instrument and join in and enjoy. But, as steel players with all the equipment we have to lug, it's almost like paying to play.
In another vein, playing benefits are a moral judgement call. As a matter of fact, it's all a moral judgement call. If you don't mind being taken advantage of, then, do it. If you do, then, stay home and invite your friends over to jam.
JMHO from years of being on both sides of the track.

[George Redmon]

Frank Rogers wrote

The problem is that the general public wouldn't know the difference between Buddy Emmons and Cousin Jody.

Which is very true, of course I'm also a big cousin Jody fan. But this club owner seems to know the difference, but apparently doesn't care if your Buddy Emmons or Cousin Jody. A different perspective, the other side of the coin. To the average club or bar owner, it's all about M*O*N*E*Y

http://www.onstagemagazine.com/open-let ... musicians/

[Don R Brown]

That's an interesting article, George, and it's hard to argue with the points made.

While off topic for this thread, he make some interesting comments on why people prefer one band over another, and it's not always the quality of the musicians either.

[Dick Sexton]

Thank you George... I found that article, informative and pertinent to myself when I was or really anyone working/wanting to work the bar scene or even thinking about it. To often we think we are there to play music, good, bad or ugly, when in fact, unless we want to do it as a one night stand, we're there to sell booze/food/or what the bar/venue is in business to do.

You can see how even, "playing for free", could be a detriment to the bar/venue. Space taken up by band followers that don't profit the venue. In general, old local crowds are lifeless, cheap, grumpy. As I am...

I also found this follow on article interesting. It's close to home... http://www.onstagemagazine.com/bmi-sues ... over-1-5m/