Reading Music (staff)

Robert Porri · Post by **Robert Porri** » 15 Oct 2004 5:51 am

Another thread about knee lever designations brought this question to mind.

Any suggestions for materials to learn regular music staff reading on PSG? What's available?

At first it seemed that with the constantly changing note scheme (because of the nature of the instrument), that this was something that would be an overwhelming task. But, I'm starting to wonder if the no pedals and no knee levers regular tuning would in fact not be too bad to take on. Then, knowing what the pedals and levers accomplish could just be thought of as options or something. I'm pretty good at reading guitar music. On PSG, I'm starting to think I'm using positions instead of note location knowledge too much.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Bob P.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 15 Oct 2004 6:08 am

Bob,
It's really difficult to play the pedal steel by reading music notation. I can do it on a non pedal steel guitar, in several different tunings in fact. However, there are sooooo many different places to get the notes and chords on a pedal steel that it is almost an insurmountable undertaking. I do put the notation on my tabs, though. If for no other reason than for the timing.
Erv

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 15 Oct 2004 6:31 am

I'm doing it some, and it's a great way to get to know the neck(s), and drives home exactly what your pedals and levers do.

What hangs you up, of course, is the number of choices available to you with the pedals/levers. What I do is to play the line non-pedal, the analyze the line to see if pedals/levers make the line easier to execute.

I am skeptical of the concept of "sight reading" in terms of creating the best music. Great sight readers can do it, but there are no instruments to my knowledge that have a "sliding floor" like the pedal steel! To get the most expression from a given line requires experimentation to find the most effective position.

On the piano, there is one key to press for any given pitch. What a concept!

[This message was edited by John McGann on 15 October 2004 at 07:32 AM.]

Tim Tweedale · Post by **Tim Tweedale** » 15 Oct 2004 9:16 am

When I learn written music on regular guitar or dobro, my first step is going through the chart and mapping out what position I'm in. Or I indicate which string a given note is going to be played on, and that tips me off as to the position I'm in. This helps me read more efficiently.

-Tim

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 15 Oct 2004 9:29 am

"On the piano, there is one key to press for any given pitch. What a concept! "

And they are all in a straight line!!!!!

JE:-)>

Robert Porri · Post by **Robert Porri** » 15 Oct 2004 9:56 am

"And they are all in a straight line!!!!!"

But you do kind of have to zig zag up to play the blues. (was it John Belushi who said "play more black keys"?)

Bob P.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 Oct 2004 10:22 am

Start out with easy piano books. Learn your C scale at the 3rd and 8th frets. Play just the treble clef parts from the books, and stay at the 3rd or 8th fret, picking strings and pushing pedals and levers.

All of the notes of the scale are available at 5 or more positions (depending on your copedent). Eventually you will learn how and when to transition between positions, but the best entry point for learning to read for pedal steel is to keep your eyes on the paper and don't move the bar.

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Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 15 Oct 2004 10:25 am

Robert,

This may be an unnecessary thing to keep track of but, it works for me. I've memorized at which fret middle C lies for each string (at least those with an open pitch at or lower than midlle C). I do this for each tuning.

As you may know, the unmarked or "invisible" line between the treble and bass lines of staff is middle C. By doing this, I "visualize'" a diagonal line from the higher pitched strings at a lower fret to lower pitched strings at higher frets. This helps me decide the general area on the neck to start from based on the "head" notes or chord to be played.

Hope this helps...somewhat.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn [This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 15 October 2004 at 11:29 AM.]

Robert Porri · Post by **Robert Porri** » 15 Oct 2004 1:00 pm

John M., all your points are well taken.

Bobby Lee, I should be able to do what you suggested about the 3rd and 8th fret positions with easy songs right away. I'd been wondering if I should just start with some of the basic guitar books I use to teach with, but I think piano books would actually serve the purpose better. It's starting to sound like there may not be any real method type note reading books for PSG. If there is I'd sure like to know.

Glenn, the diagnal line idea does seem like it will be helpful for determining general position areas. I assume by middle C, we are talking about a true middle C, unlike how you would read a guitar middle C (a regular 6 string guitar sounding an octave lower). I guess that's kind of a silly statement because if not, there would be only one of them (10th string 1st fret). So just as a starting point, reading a middle C for PSG (E9 tuning) one location would be the 1st fret of the 5th string. You could then see the other middle C notes going almost diagnally across the neck and ending on the 13th fret of the 10th string. Tell me if I'm correct and that will get me started.

Erv, Tim and Jim, thanks also.

I'd appreciate anyone's further comments or ideas on this.

Bob P.[This message was edited by Robert Porri on 15 October 2004 at 02:03 PM.]

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 15 Oct 2004 1:07 pm

Robert,
I'm refering to the standard "Middle C" in music. The same as middle C on a piano.

Yes, visualizing middle C going diagonally across the neck is correct.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Doug Brumley · Post by **Doug Brumley** » 15 Oct 2004 5:28 pm

I recently purchased Mel Bay's Deluxe Pedal Steel Guitar Method used from a forum member, and it actually includes some of this basic note-reading instruction for the E9 neck. It starts off as Bobby Lee suggests, on the 3rd and 8th frets. This might serve you better than a piano book. Looks like the book is temporarily out of stock here on the forum, but it was written by Scotty DeWitt so you can order it through him if you're in a hurry.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Oct 2004 7:10 pm

I like violin books for reading and also sight singing books. I have found that if I look at the music and can hear it in my head then my hands have an easyer time finding the notes. I am getting worse at reading lately because I haven't been getting gigs where I need to very often.

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Bob
intonation help

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 15 Oct 2004 10:40 pm

Personally, I think that learning to sight read anything beyond solo violin or cello pieces--or, really, music for any monophonic instrument--would be an olympian task. Especially at higher tempos. I'm sure it could be done, but it would take serious dedication and skill, and I'm not sure the payoff would be worth it.

Learning to sight-read the "simpler" stuff probably would be worth it, though. For that, I'd second Bob's suggestion, and I'd add the stuff I mentioned above. You might have to transpose stuff to make it playable.

The thing about playing stuff that's not written for steel is that very often your "positions" just won't work. I think that this is the main benefit of learning to read--it'll force you to figure out ways to play things "out of position." This will lead to you discovering your own personal little "pockets" or ways to connect things. Often, the best way to play something isn't immediately obvious (one of the things that makes sight-reading very difficult, as everybody says), and it takes experimentation to figure it out. To me, though, that process is the best part. It makes me feel more like a steel player and less like the pedal masher I am.

-Travis

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 16 Oct 2004 3:21 am

Bob, a concert harp is child's play compared to a pedal steel.

The harp has two rows of pedals, 3 on one side and 4 on the other, seven altogether, each of which can raise (not lower) a string either a 1/2 or whole tone. No lowers, no knee lever combos, no 1 1/2 steps.

3 pedals on one side and 4 pedals on the other, so not as many combos there as you can only play a maximum of two pedals, one per foot. No mashin' adjacent pedals on harp

(There is a not-uncommon C6th voicing using 3 pedals).

The D10 has 8 and sometimes 9 pedals, PLUS between 4 and 8 or more knee levers!

And the harp is tuned open to a diatonic scale (Cb major). 7 strings to remember the pitches, then they repeat up the subsequent 6 + octaves. Granted, there are a few more strings (47 total vs. 20 on D10), but each octave lays out exactly the same on the harp. On my C6, about 2 1/2 octaves going across, each octave has different pitched open strings, and is unique. E9, same deal.

On the harp, each pedal effects only the strings across the octaves with the same name, so one pedal effects all the Cb strings in 6 1/2 octaves. Much simpler pedal copedant!

A given pedal (say p5) on our horn can raise 2 and lower one- all different pitches, spanning 2 octaves.

A given string on harp can have 3 pitches- open, up 1/2, up whole.

My 3rd AND 4th strings can be open, up 1/2, up whole AND down 1/2.

My 10th string can be open, up whole or down 1 1/2. But no other string has that one...

So, harp seems like a much more orderly instrument to me.

Now for reading (oh yeah, the thread!)- Harp is a lot closer to a piano than steel, because a given pitch is going to happen in one (occasionally two) locations. Last I looked, I could play the E pitch (5th space treble clef, down an octave guitar transposition) on all 10 strings of my C6th neck!

But the harpists earn the right to bitch more about load in and packup!

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[This message was edited by John McGann on 16 October 2004 at 04:47 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 16 Oct 2004 3:36 am

I play C6th so my comments won't pertain exactly to the 3rd fret/8th fret stuff, but - if you learn to move the bar accurately, by practicing that skill, and block/mute strings carefully, especially those intervals that go across strings and up or down a fret (or two) simultaneously, you won't be limited by position. The old guys without pedals (Joaquin, Alvino?) did this really well. Obviously some things are going to be easier in some positions, but isn't that at least partially what's created the stereotyped sounds? If you're reading because you want to broaden the range of things available to you to play, rejecting certain notes or melodies because of a lack of technique isn't productive.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 16 Oct 2004 5:27 am

Back when I wrote my now out of print "Music Theory for E9 players" book I wrote a short section on reading music. I still have an edited version of that section in my computer and will happily E-mail it to anybody who wants it.

Robert Porri · Post by **Robert Porri** » 16 Oct 2004 6:08 am

Mike,

I appreciate the offer and will take you up on it.

My email should be correct in my profile.

Thanks,

Bob P.

Post by **b0b** » 16 Oct 2004 8:01 am

Is that book available anywhere, Mike? (Not the generic Mel Bay version, the Pedal Steel version.)

Doug Brumley mentioned that Mel Bay's Deluxe Pedal Steel Guitar Method is currently out of stock in the Forum catalog. I have an order pending, and expect to get a new shipment from Mel Bay next week that includes several other titles as well.

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<img align=left src="http://picturehost.net/b0b/ManzBob2.jpg" border="0"> Bobby Lee
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Chuck Miller · Post by **Chuck Miller** » 16 Oct 2004 8:47 am

I also would like to receive your edited version. My e-mail should be correct.

Thanks, Chuck

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 16 Oct 2004 9:50 am

Robert-Good post! I think you are on the right track. If you read for guitar, that is a plus.

I would suggest taking the regular sheet music for piano, or from a fake book with the notes and chords indicated. Then match the lead note with the correct chord and find it on your steel.

It is, of course , a lot easier if you know the names of the notes and where every note of every chord is on the first 12 frets.

And yes, you are right about learning non pedal first, the old guys did it that way , so just went smoothly to pedals, when they became available.

Of course, the Great Jerry Byrd just went along and played without pedals and look at what he has accomplished.
CARL DIXON, Where are you????....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 17 Oct 2004 8:22 am

Is that book available anywhere, Mike?

No, it's out of print for years, and I can't reprint it because Mel Bay owns the rights to all the material it contains thats not related specifically to the steel. Norris music in Texas bought all my existing copies 4 or 5 years ago and may have a few left, but I doubt it.

HOWEVER, I've written a short steel guitar supplement to the Mel Bay version, with examples from the Mel Bay book tabbed out.

The plan was to print them and have Scotty and a few other retailers sell them, but it never panned out. But the file is still in my computer and it's not to late to do a limited run. I could also print out individual copies for anybody who wants one. I'd have to charge for this.

I must emphasise that this is a supplement to tne Mel Bay book wiht thinge like "here is how the example of page xxx lays out on the steel." By itself it is meaningless.

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 17 Oct 2004 12:05 pm

The piano is a racist instrument ! Ever notice the colors of the keys ? Black and White ! hmmmm.
Anyway, reading music on a non-pedal steel is no big hassel. What bothers me is when it is written one octave higher than the actual sound. You have to read a pile of leger lines above the clef.
Arrangers today usually write as per the pitch, within the treble clef. Taking that a step further, normally only the top three strings qualify for the treble clef, all the rest would have to be written in the bass clef. Oh woe ! I doubt I could ever master that!

Tim Tweedale · Post by **Tim Tweedale** » 17 Oct 2004 5:42 pm

Taking that a step further, normally only the top three strings qualify for the treble clef, all the rest would have to be written in the bass clef.

I guess it's time to learn the alto clef, then, George.

-Tim

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 18 Oct 2004 5:00 am

I remember Keith Hilton having a C6 course which he wrote around 1970-1975. If I remember correctly, it was taught with the note system. I think Keith was selling these at the ISGC also..........JD..........
www.hiltonelectronics.com ...