Thinking of changing my knees, would like opinons

Jess Tolbirt · Post by **Jess Tolbirt** » 25 Dec 2015 9:38 am

Going out on a limb here and showing my rookieness, But i have a question,

set up now is RKR lowers the second string
RKL raises the E's
LKL lowers the E's

I have a problem making a lets say a B7 chord by holding the left knee left and holding the b pedal down..

I am thinking about moving the e's to the right knee, rkl to lower and rkr to raise,, and have the left knee lower the second string..

would this be a bad move on my part? I play by ear and tabs are one note at a time for me and this is after i have been at it for 20 years now..I was thinking this would make it easier for me to get the 1 (E), 4 (A), and 5 (B) chords and would get the B7 a lot easier..

I will wait for an answer before i start pulling parts off..

I could also swap the e's knees to where i could lower with the left knee by pushing right...but my mind would have a hard time making a string lower by pushing right but could probably over come that..

dam these noise makers anyway, LOL....
thanks in advance guys...

i think i got this all straight now

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 25 Dec 2015 9:50 am

Pedals ABC or BCA (Emmons or Day set up) ?
If ABC,I would go :LKL E->F & LKR E->D#
or... LKL E->F & RKL E->D#
Up to you !

Jess Tolbirt · Post by **Jess Tolbirt** » 25 Dec 2015 9:52 am

John Sluszny wrote:Pedals ABC or BCA (Emmons or Day set up) ?
If ABC,I would go :LKL E->F & LKR E->D#
or... LKL E->F & RKL E->D#
Up to you !

thanks for the reply, the pedals now are ABC

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 25 Dec 2015 10:02 am

My bias is that the following is how I set up all my guitars:

Per the above statement, if I received your guitar, set up as it is, the very simple alteration I would make would be to switch the raises & lowers. LKL to raise the E's. RKL to lower them.
This is my setup and it works very well. It is quite common. It is not THE standard but it is a standard.
I agree with you that LKL + B pedal is awkward, especially considering that it is a very fundamental and important 7th chord inversion.

The change-over would just swap rods & changer holes. Take note of the bellcrank hole/slot positions that currently work well (if they do).

Jess Tolbirt · Post by **Jess Tolbirt** » 25 Dec 2015 10:07 am

Jon Light wrote:My bias is that the following is how I set up all my guitars:

Per the above statement, if I received your guitar, set up as it is, the very simple alteration I would make would be to switch the raises & lowers. LKL to raise the E's. RKL to lower them.
This is my setup and it works very well. It is quite common.
I agree with you that LKL + B pedal is awkward, especially considering that it is a very fundamental and important 7th chord inversion.

The change-over would just swap rods & changer holes. Take note of the bellcrank hole/slot positions that currently work well (if they do).

thank you,, I have a Marlen and this mechanism is a very simple setup and I like it, makes it easy to change things around.. now the U-12 Sierra i have in the garage is another story in itself LOL,,

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 25 Dec 2015 10:23 am

My opinion means very little, but I just like the idea of keeping the "E" raise and lower off the left knee.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 25 Dec 2015 10:26 am

There were NO better steel guitar men on the planet during the 70's and 80's than Maurice Anderson and Bud Carter.. If you bought one of the thousands upon thousands of MSA pedal steel guitars during those years, your knee lever changes,, were this, unless you specifically asked for something else...
RkR- Lower both E's 1/2
RkL- Raise both knees 1/2
Lkl-Raise string 1 1/2
LkR - Lower sting 2 a half tone and then a full tone with feel stop..
Those guys knew steel players, were great steel players themselves and knew the best way to get the most and easiest combintations from the pedals and levers... I have NO trouble getting any chord, or any combination of notes with that lever set up.. Why it is so rare today is beyond me.. I would never consider changing it.. Years ago when I had John Fabian and Bud build me my first Carter, I told John my lever set up, and he said to me, "yep" standard MSA".. He never questioned why I wanted it "backwards" from what most guys use today.. I find the E's on different knees to be counter intuitive, but hey I AM in the minority on this.. I say put both E's on the R knee.. I hit those 7th chords with great ease and comfort... bob

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 25 Dec 2015 10:30 am

If you're playing an Emmons setup, that E to D# change should be on LKR, if you want it on the left knee. That's a pretty uncomfortable move. Say you are in the pedals down position and want to let off the A pedal and hit the knee lever for the V7 chord. Your ankle is turning to the right and your knee is going to the left. I would think they would fight each other and be uncomfortable.

Jess Tolbirt · Post by **Jess Tolbirt** » 25 Dec 2015 10:33 am

i was not expecting replies so fast, thats why i love this place,, so it looks like my e's are going to the right knee, that makes it easier in my brain and my left knee can fend for its self so to speak,, thanks for all the replies, i hope it helps others also,,,

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 25 Dec 2015 10:45 am

Bob C. said:

Those guys knew steel players, were great steel players themselves and knew the best way to get the most and easiest combintations from the pedals and levers... I have NO trouble getting any chord, or any combination of notes with that lever set up.. Why it is so rare today is beyond me.. I would never consider changing it.. Years ago when I had John Fabian and Bud build me my first Carter, I told John my lever set up, and he said to me, "yep" standard MSA".. He never questioned why I wanted it "backwards" from what most guys use today.. I find the E's on different knees to be counter intuitive, but hey I AM in the minority on this.. I say put both E's on the R knee.. I hit those 7th chords with great ease and comfort... bob

I have no problems getting any chord with both E string changes on the left knee. But, I wouldn't call having both E changes on the right knee rare. There are many that have them that way. And the comment about the changes being on separate knees, I don't like it either. But again, many players do that and have no problems. I play Day style and have no problem with the 7th chord change. As my foot rolls to the left, it so intuitive, and comfortable, to have the knee go to the left in one smooth move, not to say that having it on the right knee wouldn't be a smooth move.

There are so many setups among us, and none is better than the other (with a few exceptions). Do what works the best for you and is the most comfortable. It may take moving things around sometimes to try it.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 25 Dec 2015 10:51 am

rkl..e-eb
lkr..e-f

Jess Tolbirt · Post by **Jess Tolbirt** » 25 Dec 2015 6:28 pm

well i worked on this all day long and cant do it with this changer,, looks like i can raise the with my,,
nope wait i got lots of bell cranks maybe i can manipulate them ,,,hold on brb

Dave Meis · Post by **Dave Meis** » 25 Dec 2015 9:22 pm

I've always had the E's on the right..just makes sense to me. I learned on the MSA set-up, and when I get a new guitar, I always have to change it to E's on the right. The few occasions when I go from raised to lowered on consecutive chords can require some volume pedal 'finesse', but no set up is perfect. I like having the 'raises' going inboard, and the 'lowers' going outboard on both knees. Good luck on getting it right for you. dave

Jess Tolbirt · Post by **Jess Tolbirt** » 25 Dec 2015 9:42 pm

well i started at 11:38am and its now 11:39pm,,,success
rkl lowers and rkr raises

thanks for all the kind words about setups,,

Dan Robinson · Post by **Dan Robinson** » 25 Dec 2015 11:17 pm

Good on ya' Jess! You're surprised you got so many quick replies? I'm surprised you put that out there, digested the feedback, made a decision and implemented it so quickly.

I have Emmons pedals (ABC), with E's on the right, like you now have. RKL/-D#, RKR/+F. ShoBud made quite a few S10 guitars in the 1970s with E's setup like this. You could articulate the advantages of putting the E's one knee, but also make a sensible argument for putting raise and lower on opposite knees. Nothing wrong with your choice if it works for you.

Remember, you always have a right to change your mind.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 Dec 2015 6:35 am

there is no right or wrong, or right or left...

it's a personal preference. Probably most folks like the E's on the left , or rather "the same leg" as it allows other options for the OTHER leg.

You would never raise the E's and lower them at the same time so the logic is do both of those pulls on the same knee, don't waste a knee !

The natural ergonomic position for the E's is over there on the left where the AB Peds are as that is the more dominant physical position. BUT, again, that doesn't mean that it is cast in concrete.

If someone wants to split them then they should !

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 26 Dec 2015 7:01 am

My Williams and Mullen have LKL for the E raise. RKL for the E lower. The only time my set-up has been different was on my PP with both knees on the left.

Jess Tolbirt · Post by **Jess Tolbirt** » 26 Dec 2015 7:38 am

i would have been ok if the left knee would would have lowered the e's to the right, but i couldnt get the lkl and the b pedal down at the same time,, been like that for a few years now and i couldnt figure out why i couldnt make a 7th chord,, i thought my mind was playing tricks on me,,you do have to pull this thing completely apart to make the changes due to the simplified changer and the way its built, but now i can tear it down in ten minutes LOL..i only have 3 levers to work with and right now the lkr lowers the 2nd string but i have the works under there to add at least one more lever and a horizonal one if i decide.. OR>> i could just set up that U-12 Sierra i have out there but its so heavy i am afraid it might poke holes in the floor of the house, that thing has more levers and knees than i ever seen before,, and pedals? got 7 of em and i cant even play 3 LOL..
again thanks guys!! and a Happy New year to ya all..

Carl Mesrobian · Post by **Carl Mesrobian** » 26 Dec 2015 3:08 pm

Jess,when I read the title of the post about knees and then your comment about going out on a limb I became extremely concerned

I use the standard Emmons setup after coming from a Sho Bud setup when first learning, but found that to facilitate learning and not have to re invent the lesson books I had, I set up my guitar with Emmons copedent. IMO, the most important thing is knowing where the lowers and raises are and what they do.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 Dec 2015 9:31 am

Carl Mesrobian wrote:Jess,when I read the title of the post about knees and then your comment about going out on a limb I became extremely concerned

I use the standard Emmons setup after coming from a Sho Bud setup when first learning, but found that to facilitate learning and not have to re invent the lesson books I had, I set up my guitar with Emmons copedent. IMO, the most important thing is knowing where the lowers and raises are and what they do.

I thought the post was going to be about knee replacements.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 27 Dec 2015 9:45 am

I have the Es on separate knees because I can do the same things as if they were together, but I can also go smoothly from raise to lower, e.g. to drop the third in the A/F position. I see no practical advantage in having them on the same knee. But tradition is powerful.

Carl Mesrobian · Post by **Carl Mesrobian** » 27 Dec 2015 10:56 am

Again, whatever works for you.. Look here:

http://b0b.com/wp/?page_id=201

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 Dec 2015 1:35 pm

Ian, here's my argument for putting them on the same knee:
I often use the E lowers with the 2nd string drop and/or the 6th string drop.
I occasionally use the E raises with the 2nd string drop.
Therefore, it makes sense to put the E levers together, so that both may be used with the 2nd string drop.

Rocky Evangelisti · Post by **Rocky Evangelisti** » 27 Dec 2015 6:10 pm

I'm with you Lane. I like the use of the LKR lowering the E's and combining this with the RKR second string Lower.
Tommy Detamore plays a great phrase using this combination in his Solo of Doug Sahm's "Beautiful Texas Sunshine".