Intonation Woes - HELP!
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
- Paul Heinonen
- Posts: 17
- Joined: 27 Oct 2014 9:44 am
- Location: Ishpeming, Michigan, USA
Intonation Woes - HELP!
Hi fellow steelers! I need someone to help me with intonation, it's my biggest frustration at this point. I've been a pedal steel "owner" for 18 months, and have made satisfactory progress with scales, chords, grips, volume swells, etc. I'm confident enough to improvise solos (I'm a guitarist of 38 years) and I'm starting to feel like a pedal steel "player", not just an "owner".
Intonation is the biggest wild card for me at this point in my progress. It's a crap shoot from day to day wheather I'm "on" or not. Some days I can't miss and everything just seems to "land". Other days, it seems the only solution is to walk away as nothing will "hit". It shakes my confidence at gigs because I never know if it'll be a "hit" or "miss" day until it's too late.
I've searched the forum and found the Franklin exercise, but I could use a few other options. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks!
Paul
Intonation is the biggest wild card for me at this point in my progress. It's a crap shoot from day to day wheather I'm "on" or not. Some days I can't miss and everything just seems to "land". Other days, it seems the only solution is to walk away as nothing will "hit". It shakes my confidence at gigs because I never know if it'll be a "hit" or "miss" day until it's too late.
I've searched the forum and found the Franklin exercise, but I could use a few other options. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks!
Paul
- John Booth
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- Location: Columbus Ohio, USA
Paul,
It is mostly practice.
Just throw on music you are familiar with and play a lot along with it.
Your aim and your ear will improve with time.
Backtracks, albums, anything you can play along with.
Also watch your left hand carefully. We sometimes have our bar not perfectly straight (slightly slanted) that'll make everything sound like hell.
Good luck
JB
It is mostly practice.
Just throw on music you are familiar with and play a lot along with it.
Your aim and your ear will improve with time.
Backtracks, albums, anything you can play along with.
Also watch your left hand carefully. We sometimes have our bar not perfectly straight (slightly slanted) that'll make everything sound like hell.
Good luck
JB
Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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What John said.
Remember there's a parallax factor in bar placement.
There are reference tone generators for nearly all platforms, many of them free. If you're learning a lick in A, set a drone tone at 220Hz (that's open 6th string with B pedal), and use your ears to tune your hands.
Remember there's a parallax factor in bar placement.
There are reference tone generators for nearly all platforms, many of them free. If you're learning a lick in A, set a drone tone at 220Hz (that's open 6th string with B pedal), and use your ears to tune your hands.
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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- Location: New Jersey, USA
Hey Paul. Intonation has been a big challenge for me also . IMHO it trumps everything else in order of importance. If we don't play in tune with other instruments/band members/tracks, not much else is gonna matter. I practice along with a " Cello Drones" cd everyday. Track 1 is six minutes of a C drone,Track 2 is G ,3 is D,etc..following the circle of fifths. The cd is typically available on Amazon. I rarely practice to just "air". I play solos I've lifted from recordings, scale work, improvisation,Paul's bar drill( in E), etc. all against the appropriate drone key track. It's been a long hard grind, but it's definitely paying off. Sometimes I simultaneously use an old Korg tuner with a mike to add visual feedback to check my accuracy. As a side benefit, my vocal sense of pitch has improved a lot also, even though I'll never be a great singer. Also , I believe well-respected forum member Bob Hofner may have drone tracks available.
- Rich Upright
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- Location: Florida, USA
There are a few little tricks you can do that will help you with intonation, and a couple of them are kind of cheating, but they work. Add a little digital delay or reverb, combined with a controlled left-hand vibrato and your intonation will suddenly sound better. Just don't get used to depending on these. Also , the newer your strings are, the better your intonation will be. I get about six to eight gigs out of a set of strings before the intonation has gone to hell.
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag.
- Greg Cutshaw
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It's an art to play in tune with a live band as opposed to just woodshedding in the basement. Many techniques apply!
Having a good open tuning and having the pedals closely tuned to each other in the right combinations is a good start. Note that you should push the pedal, tune it, push it tune it etc until all is ok. You will end up playing with the string hysteresis after the pedal has activated in most cases anyhow. The first time you hit the pedal and release it, the open tuning will jump a bit so tune for the after pedal effect.
At times you will to play above or below the fret to blend in with the other instruments. Will will vary depending on what those instruments are, how they are tuned, and what pedals you do or don't have activated etc.
Sometimes it best not to play at all during certain portions of a song to avoid listener ear fatigue and at times the steel just does not play well with other sounds.
Slant the bar as needed to tune certain chord positions.
Vary the bar pressure from top to bottom strings to achieve the needed tuning as some times this works better than slanting.
Don't push too hard on the floor pedals causing excessive cabinet drop.
Tune the steel every hour during a gig to get the open tuning at least centered before it starts drifting again.
Many other things apply but it takes practice and time to achieve an in tune sound.
And yes a bit of vibrato well centered on the instruments around you will do wonders to cover up tunings differences!
Having a good open tuning and having the pedals closely tuned to each other in the right combinations is a good start. Note that you should push the pedal, tune it, push it tune it etc until all is ok. You will end up playing with the string hysteresis after the pedal has activated in most cases anyhow. The first time you hit the pedal and release it, the open tuning will jump a bit so tune for the after pedal effect.
At times you will to play above or below the fret to blend in with the other instruments. Will will vary depending on what those instruments are, how they are tuned, and what pedals you do or don't have activated etc.
Sometimes it best not to play at all during certain portions of a song to avoid listener ear fatigue and at times the steel just does not play well with other sounds.
Slant the bar as needed to tune certain chord positions.
Vary the bar pressure from top to bottom strings to achieve the needed tuning as some times this works better than slanting.
Don't push too hard on the floor pedals causing excessive cabinet drop.
Tune the steel every hour during a gig to get the open tuning at least centered before it starts drifting again.
Many other things apply but it takes practice and time to achieve an in tune sound.
And yes a bit of vibrato well centered on the instruments around you will do wonders to cover up tunings differences!
- Paul Heinonen
- Posts: 17
- Joined: 27 Oct 2014 9:44 am
- Location: Ishpeming, Michigan, USA
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- Joined: 27 Nov 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Nashville TN
Intonation is my biggest challenge - especially working long hours. One thing I do before leaving for a gig is to listen to a CD to get the sound of a really in tune steel player in my head. I play Lloyd Green's "Revisited" or anything by Buddy Emmons (usually "Learn 10 Songs on the Pedal Steel Guitar"). I also have several videos of Emmons playing and I watch these for his left hand vibrato and intonation.
My latest go to CD is Jay Dee Maness' new CD "From Where I Sit." This is one of the most in tune pedal steel records I've ever heard and great for what I've described above.
My latest go to CD is Jay Dee Maness' new CD "From Where I Sit." This is one of the most in tune pedal steel records I've ever heard and great for what I've described above.
- Dave Campbell
- Posts: 647
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- Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
something that was already mentioned and that i find very helpful is playing scales over drones. i use this:
http://www.dronetonetool.com
i usually go through scales that use the d lever, then the f lever, then mostly a and b, then b and c. using the metronome feature helps as well.
if i'm practicing licks/intros/solos etc., i'll write the chords into band in a box to give me some reference.
http://www.dronetonetool.com
i usually go through scales that use the d lever, then the f lever, then mostly a and b, then b and c. using the metronome feature helps as well.
if i'm practicing licks/intros/solos etc., i'll write the chords into band in a box to give me some reference.
That drone-tone site is interesting. I have used something similar using a Digtitech Trio pedal, playing a single chord at different rhythms as a "pad" - the pedal creates bass and drum parts that you an adjust to a couple dozen variations in "feel" and "style" and you can practice playing over the same chord in different positions over the bass/drums "backup band"
Finding a comfortable seating height, distance from the instrument and position in relation to the fretboard is probably the single most important thing IMO. IF you move even one or two frets "sharp" or "flat" of where you played yesterday the parallax shifts, and your entire perception is...well, screwed! Different guitars have varying positions for knee levers (plus many have been added after construction) and are not consistent in how they can be adjusted either, so there is NO standard seating position.
And if you slouch on a particular day, or sit straighter, or use a seat that's close to but not exact in hight it WILL affect the sight angle.
So it's extremely important to map out your body position, posture, arm angles, head tilt (if any) etc. at this point in your playing. Guys who have been at it for 30 years seem to be able to play with their eyes closed, but even after about 10-12 years on and off playing steel I have to be very conscious of body position!
Finding a comfortable seating height, distance from the instrument and position in relation to the fretboard is probably the single most important thing IMO. IF you move even one or two frets "sharp" or "flat" of where you played yesterday the parallax shifts, and your entire perception is...well, screwed! Different guitars have varying positions for knee levers (plus many have been added after construction) and are not consistent in how they can be adjusted either, so there is NO standard seating position.
And if you slouch on a particular day, or sit straighter, or use a seat that's close to but not exact in hight it WILL affect the sight angle.
So it's extremely important to map out your body position, posture, arm angles, head tilt (if any) etc. at this point in your playing. Guys who have been at it for 30 years seem to be able to play with their eyes closed, but even after about 10-12 years on and off playing steel I have to be very conscious of body position!
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
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Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
- Billy McCombs
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Many times, I've been recorded playing something, and then when I go back and listen, I find the result isn't as good as I thought it would be. Probably because, when I play, I'm primarily listening to what I'm doing. But when I hear it later, I'm listening to the whole sound, in context. It takes a lot of concentration to listen to everything else when you're playing.
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Here are some things I've used to improve intonation. You can make warm up exercises around these ideas.
Playing the same pitch on different strings, especially descending.
Leaping octaves on the neck - play something in the lower octive say in C at the 8th fret then shift up 12 frets & play the same thing.
Playing slants & tuning out the beats. Even better, playing slants against an open string and tuning out the beats.
On a gig if you are having a 'miss' day you might try playing very simply and channelling your inner Ben Keith.
Playing the same pitch on different strings, especially descending.
Leaping octaves on the neck - play something in the lower octive say in C at the 8th fret then shift up 12 frets & play the same thing.
Playing slants & tuning out the beats. Even better, playing slants against an open string and tuning out the beats.
On a gig if you are having a 'miss' day you might try playing very simply and channelling your inner Ben Keith.
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- Paul Heinonen
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- Location: Ishpeming, Michigan, USA
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I read an article by Buddy Emmons on intonation, and my non-pedal steel teacher, Alan Akaka, both said that playing with closed eyes improves intonation. It's painful at first, but it works - you're depending on your ears rather than your eyes for intonation. Someone in a SGF post said that he saw Buddy backstage playing in the dark. When asked why, Buddy told him that it was to improve his intonation. Good Luck!
Jack Aldrich
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Carter & ShoBud D10's
D8 & T8 Stringmaster
Rickenbacher B6
3 Resonator guitars
Asher Alan Akaka Special SN 6
Canopus D8
- Paul Heinonen
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From your OP, it sounds like intonation is a changing problem when you are in control of everything. That is, you are experiencing these issues even though you are playing the same guitar through the same amp and effects in the same environment. If that's the case, this problem is either changes in your day-to-day playing or it's all in your head. And I don't mean that as an insult.
It sounds like you're still working on your technique. That's a good thing. But there's no shortcut to hours of "seat time" for getting to a place where you feel like your sound is consistent and you can concentrate on learning new songs.
It sounds like you're still working on your technique. That's a good thing. But there's no shortcut to hours of "seat time" for getting to a place where you feel like your sound is consistent and you can concentrate on learning new songs.
Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals.
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals.
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Intonation
One thing that i do is I always let the guitar get to room temperature before I tune. I usually ask the other guys to check their tuners to mine. On many occasion I have played with fiddle players that may play a little flat or sharp and my motto is don't chase the fiddle player!!!
Dsle
Dsle
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- Curt Trisko
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This was my first thought... that the ears need exercise and training. It's technically not a fretted instrument.Jack Aldrich wrote:I read an article by Buddy Emmons on intonation, and my non-pedal steel teacher, Alan Akaka, both said that playing with closed eyes improves intonation. It's painful at first, but it works - you're depending on your ears rather than your eyes for intonation. Someone in a SGF post said that he saw Buddy backstage playing in the dark. When asked why, Buddy told him that it was to improve his intonation. Good Luck!
and I would add that it can appear straight but have uneven pressure between the tip and the heel, which is harder to spot.John Booth wrote:We sometimes have our bar not perfectly straight
Intonation uses a servo system of hand-ear-brain-hand-ear-etc. How many different bits of grey matter are involved between the sensory bit and the motor bit I am not qualified to say, but sportsmen have good and bad days however hard they train for consistency.
If you've never played a sliding instrument there is training required, no doubt. I regard myself as a bad cheat at the steel for having played trombone for fifty years first. But to play a trombone in tune you have to concentrate, which means you have to be wide awake and free of distractions - it never takes care of itself.
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
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