How detailed is ASCAP for any music played

Craig Schwartz · Post by **Craig Schwartz** » 13 Dec 2015 2:35 pm

How far does ascap go to where you can play music in a store , on the phone , in a mall , a dentist office or am I thinking there too much like Natzi's, and I should be ashamed of myself, I already know how bad it is in bars.

anyone ...........

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 Dec 2015 3:11 pm

Are you asking about playing LIVE or RECORDED MUSIC for a public event/location or a bar /restaurant ?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Dec 2015 5:35 pm

I really don't know.

Copyright protections have gone from sublime to ridiculous. Frustrating, really.

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 13 Dec 2015 6:55 pm

There needs to be away that coffee shop/ wine bars can have people play without all the hassle from BMI. The system just doesn't work for anybody.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 13 Dec 2015 10:16 pm

i heard they were like mobsters demanding
protection money.

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 13 Dec 2015 11:09 pm

They are like extortionist wanting to their protection money, but that is the nature of the beast. Everyone is quite aware that song writers want to get paid, even when the artist performing isn't. that is just human nature.
I just think there must be a way in these low budget places that they could have some live music and play covers. The coffee shots are getting 2 bucks for a coffee and barely covering overhead. The music won't bring in enough money to warrant 1500 bucks a month.
So less music gets played live and less people get to realize how enjoyable that is, less interest, less demand, less jobs, less musicians. I can't see a positive here guys?
And what is the response I usually hear, they aren't here yet!So we don't have a problem. I don't have the answer maybe someone out there does?

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 14 Dec 2015 3:23 pm

chris ivey wrote:i heard they were like mobsters demanding
protection money.

It's not so hard to believe.
In a secret meeting (don't tell anybody, but it was LJ Eiffert) I learned that the roots of the union aren't so far removed from the teamsters....

Indeed,

Neils Andrews wrote:The system just doesn't work for anybody.

Anybody at all.
It seems you can get away with what you can get away with.
When did I ever pay a cent for any tune I played on in a bar? Does it not eventually become public domain? And shouldn't it?
You would think any mall would be tickled to have a selection of Larry Bell's Christmas tunes to play--or are they scared he'll sue?

Craig Baker · Post by **Craig Baker** » 14 Dec 2015 4:04 pm

The three music license companies that I deal with, BMI, ASCAP and SESAC all have similar rules. If it's a public performance of licensed music. . . somebody must pay. Doesn't matter if it's a concert, nightclub, street corner, or radio program, profit or non-profit

The same goes for hymns sung in a church as well. Many churches are unaware that they must pay royalties.

They even have a special license, at a reduced rate just to cover "music-on-hold". These companies consider performing music live or recorded, an attraction and an inducement to bring in more business. The only exceptions are an office or small shop where you are allowed no more than two speakers in one area. There should be many more exceptions, so keep fighting the good fight.

Craig

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 15 Dec 2015 7:43 am

BMI and ASCAP are nothing but legal scams to me. They will stalk you and hunt you down if you have any kind of live music or even a radio on in a coffee shop.

Robert Harper · Post by **Robert Harper** » 15 Dec 2015 8:43 am

Does band register with one of these organizations? It just seems there are too many small places to make enforcement possible.

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 15 Dec 2015 9:01 am

Robert, this is a cut and paste from the ASCAP FAQ section.

Some people mistakenly assume that musicians and entertainers must obtain licenses to perform copyrighted music or that businesses where music is performed can shift their responsibility to musicians or entertainers. The law says all who participate in, or are responsible for, performances of music are legally responsible. Since it is the business owner who obtains the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who obtains the license. Music license fees are one of the many costs of doing business.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 15 Dec 2015 9:12 am

Henry Matthews wrote:BMI and ASCAP are nothing but legal scams to me. They will stalk you and hunt you down if you have any kind of live music or even a radio on in a coffee shop.

I was in a club when a BMI rep rep came in to talk with the owner. The owner wasn't paying any of them. I overheard him talking about the radio and any TV performances on TV, if played in his bar.

What is the recourse that BMI or ASCAP have against places that don't pony up the money? Do they just get sued?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 15 Dec 2015 9:19 am

I am a registered ASCAP member , of course I have sold less than a handful of tunes so royalties is the last thing I am expecting.

The fee schedule for small venues is very liberal. How many nights do you have music or Tv, how many patrons etc. One price does not fit all.

Whats the complaint ? that it should be free to AIR a TV program ( sports) or play live music while charging for drinks/food or a cover charge at the door ?

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 15 Dec 2015 9:21 am

Richard, yes, they file suit against the establishment.
Here is an interesting article.

http://www2.qsrmagazine.com/articles/ex ... ht-1.phtml

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 15 Dec 2015 11:26 am

Tony Prior wrote:I am a registered ASCAP member , of course I have sold less than a handful of tunes so royalties is the last thing I am expecting.

The fee schedule for small venues is very liberal. How many nights do you have music or Tv, how many patrons etc. One price does not fit all.

Whats the complaint ? that it should be free to AIR a TV program ( sports) or play live music while charging for drinks/food or a cover charge at the door ?

The fees aren't very liberal to me. They charge by how many your venue seats and not by how many are there. I can seat 560 and our attendance is less than a hundred but I have to pay for the 560.

And yes the complaint is for a little Opry show like ours that just struggles to pay the bills, they come in and take almost $200 a month which really takes a chunk out of the bill paying. I do my Opry shows strickley for fun and a hobby and have never made money at it. It's just always eked by and now with the crowds failing or really just dying out, it's really tough? Everyone has opinions but they shouldn't even mess with little Oprys and dances
and such that just barely get by anyway. They are worse than mobsters in that what they
do is legal. Yes, you should be able to air live tv, sports, soap operas and anything else and play live or recorded music. They have all ready been payed for as far as I'm concerned.

Doug Palmer · Post by **Doug Palmer** » 15 Dec 2015 12:50 pm

Some clubs around here pay a yearly fee and some don't. I tell them we play original arrangements. I wonder how they(ASCAP etc.) split the money fairly. Does Willie or Merle get more than Hank? What is public domain?

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 15 Dec 2015 12:59 pm

I am a BMI writer and they charge venues allegedly to pay performers who performer their music live. I perform my songs live as do several other performers that I now. I have NEVER received a penny for live performance, although I have received small checks for airplay. However, they never fail to send me a letter asking me to write my congressman whenever their little scam is threatened.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 15 Dec 2015 2:50 pm

Doug Palmer wrote: I wonder how they(ASCAP etc.) split the money fairly.

They make an effort to be fair but of course it is impossible to know every song ever played anywhere, so there is lots of estimating involved, and of course every writer feels he should get a bigger share.

Doug Palmer wrote: What is public domain?

Anything older than Mickey Mouse

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 15 Dec 2015 2:53 pm

Clyde, are you submitting your play documentation to BMI and not getting a royalty ?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Dec 2015 6:54 pm

Tony Prior wrote:
Whats the complaint ? that it should be free to AIR a TV program ( sports) or play live music while charging for drinks/food or a cover charge at the door ?

Yes, it's pretty obvious that's the complaint.

I am a registered ASCAP member , of course I have sold less than a handful of tunes so royalties is the last thing I am expecting.

So then, I guess that's another valid complaint...right? $:\$

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 16 Dec 2015 7:25 pm

In response to Tony Prior, charging a cover charge to hear a 14 year old girl play a few cover tunes might prove to be a little rough. I feel encouraging young musicians is part and parcel of being a musician. These little coffe shops are not going to pay $1500.00 to BMI.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 17 Dec 2015 1:26 am

OF course I never said I agree with the fees. And no I am not complaining about not getting any royalties.

Let everything be free, I don't much care !

Steel guitars should be free, so should all Tab courses, CD's, concert tickets, MP3 downloads, recording studio time, strings, amps etc... I think everything that has a price on it that I don't agree with should be free. Why stop at ASCAP fee's ?

I didn't make the rules, I just know what they are.

Don R Brown · Post by **Don R Brown** » 17 Dec 2015 6:03 am

Richard Sinkler wrote: I was in a club when a BMI rep rep came in to talk with the owner. The owner wasn't paying any of them. I overheard him talking about the radio and any TV performances on TV, if played in his bar.

Presumably a radio station pays some sort of fees to BMI to be allowed to broadcast a given song. Then the bar owner also pays BMI for receiving the same song the radio already paid for sending? Interesting!

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 17 Dec 2015 6:09 am

I worked a club a few years ago that actually charged the band for ASCAP/BMI fees (supposedly). It was a popular venue, and the pay was based on the take at the door, which was a virtual guarantee, it was always busy. However, at the end of the gig, she took 'x' dollars right off the top, explaining it was for those fees.

I have no way of knowing if she actually paid ASCAP/BMI, and it wasn't an extremely large amount (maybe 50 bux?), but I found it objectionable that she shifted part of her overhead for doing business to the band. We eventually quit working the gig, for that and other reasons.

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 17 Dec 2015 10:33 am

Come on guys! This is how songwriters and publishing companies get paid for their work. Do you think they should work for free? This is how they pay their bills, feed their children, etc... Pay is based on a formula related to how popular the song is, amount of airplay, etc...based on the play logs of large radio stations. They don't ask for your individual logs of the songs you perform. You just pay a general fee based on the frequency of your shows and the number of seats. Before you label ASCAP and BMI as crooks, you should look at their websites so you understand how this works.

You wouldn't expect professional musicians to play for nothing would you? Were it not for the songwriters, we would not have any material to play.

I'm a BMI songwriter and I used to get a check from where a song I wrote got airplay in Holland of all places. I think I got about $5 total. Haven't got one in years. My songwriting career took a turn for the worse about 20 years ago.

I think I might write a song about a line dancing Robin Hood type girlfriend that drives around in a pickup monster truck and steals beer from rich people's pickups and gives it to poor people.

RC

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