difference between a shobud and an Emmons

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 12 Nov 2015 2:09 am

Damir....I'm already on my second pint of strong U.K. ale

Micky "scars" Byrne U.K.

Bob Muller · Post by **Bob Muller** » 12 Nov 2015 9:33 am

Damir Besic wrote:there is so much bull shit on here, by "know it all experts", that I have to go get me a beer ...

Always remember that whether you're playing the guitar or drinking a "Bud" would be the "wiser" choice!

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Nov 2015 3:40 pm

Bob Muller wrote: Always remember that whether you're playing the guitar or drinking a "Bud" would be the "wiser" choice!

An old girlfriend of mine wanted to assemble a steel guitar using old beer cans. I told her she'd be a "solder Budweiser girl."

How's that for topic drift?

Allan Kirby · Post by **Allan Kirby** » 15 Nov 2015 8:52 am

Hi Paul,

I played a Fulawka SD-10 for many years, but sold it a couple of years ago simply because it had become too big and heavy for me to handle as I got older. I now have a push/pull single neck Emmons and a single neck Sho-Bud. The Emmons was in rough shape when I got it. Al Brisco refurbished the mechanism and set it up nicely. He did swear at the Emmons a few times when he was working on it, but he did a superb job. Al has also set up my Sho-Bud, but that is routine to him.

Each guitar has a distinctive sound that can be easily tailored through the amplification. The biggest difference I found, from a purely subjective perspective, was that I transitioned from the Fulawka to the Sho-Bud much easier. The pedal and knee action is similar, string spacing seems identical, the mechanism and pedals are quiet, and visually I am comfortable with the fret board.

The Emmons, to me feels a bit clunky and the pedals are noisy to my ear. It took a while to get used to the colorful and shiny fretboard, versus the "dust-collector" fret board on the Sho-Bud, which defines everything nicely. It took a while to get used the push/pull mechanism to fine tune the pedals and the open strings, but Al Brisco explained the procedure to me quite well. The Emmons seems to stay in tune better than the Sho-Bud especially if it goes a while without being played.

I really like both of the guitars, however, as I first mentioned, the Sho-Bud was much easier to get used to after the Fulawka. If I was forced to have only one guitar, it would likely be the Sho-Bud.

I love the sound of each of these guitars, which still have the original pick-ups in them. It is hard to choose sound-wise so I focused on the mechanics. I hope this helps a bit.

Regards, Al

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 22 Nov 2015 9:28 am

I have had both Sho-Bud Professionals, Pro I, Pro II, and a Fingertip as well as Emmons push/pulls, LeGrande, LeGrande II and LeGrande III. In my experience, the main difference once the pickup is taken into consideration is what happens when playing above the 15th fret. At least with the Sho-Bud and Emmons guitars that I have had, Sho-Buds seem to have less sustain when played up high. Emmons guitars seem to have more good stuff going on above the 15th fret. If you listen to Tommy White playing his Sho-Bud, you can't really say that Sho-Buds don't sound fantastic. They do. If you listen to John Hughey playing his push/pull up high, it's wonderful sounding. I just sold a Sho-Bud that sounded absolutely fantastic even up high so maybe my observations are general.
Also, one of the things that Jeff at Show-Pro has figured out is how to make his lacquer body, wood neck, "similar to Sho-Bud vibe" steel guitars sound great all the way up the fretboard. I think he mentioned that he's varied some of the wood thicknesses to accomplish this.
Also, Sho-Buds generally have less precise mechanisms than Emmons do. The Jackson Steel Guitar company has brought the best of Sho-Bud style guitars and updated them with modern precision mechanisms.
It's a great time in history to play steel guitar as true renaissance builders are producing truly great instruments. TC

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Nov 2015 1:08 pm

Sho Bud STOPPED with new design changes right at around 1980. The latest design was a 5 hole puller system with somewhat crummy pot metal parts . Previous was the two hole puller system, 73 or so to 76 or so..approx., excellent sound but not so friendly to set up.

Emmons during the 60's thru the early 80's was building the Push Pull steels, totally different systems than the all pull Sho Buds. Push Pulls are excellent when set up correctly but make no mistake, they do not set up as friendly as All Pull Steels. After Push Pulls they built ALL Pull guitars, Legrandes, II's and III's. they ended up with 14 hole pullers. The action can be set up , as far as I am concerned , perfectly !

As far as Sho Bud tone vs Emmons tones, that really is a preference thing, I like em' both. I have them both. Actually right now I have one of each ! Sho Bud 2 hole puller, Sho Bud 5 hole puller with pot metal parts, Emmons Push Pull and Emmons Legrande II with 14 hole pullers ! The LII is easily the best player, but the two best TONES are the Emmons Push Pull and the Sho Bud 2 hole puller guitar.( Pro III) .

Whats the question again ?

When Damir puts his Beer down he can add or subtract to my comments !

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 22 Nov 2015 7:37 pm

I've never played a Rains but to me , it looks pretty much like a Emmons knock off. One of each, as stated earlier. RP

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 22 Nov 2015 8:38 pm

Ron Pruter wrote:I've never played a Rains but to me , it looks pretty much like a Emmons knock off. One of each, as stated earlier. RP

Most of the guitars made today are Emmons knock offs.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 23 Nov 2015 1:19 am

Jim Smith wrote:
Ron Pruter wrote:I've never played a Rains but to me , it looks pretty much like a Emmons knock off. One of each, as stated earlier. RP
Most of the guitars made today are Emmons knock offs.

Well that may not be accurate unless we are referring to Push Pull axes. Yes, certainly designs improved but the idea that the ALL PULL guitars came from the Emmons state of mind is probably not an accepted point of view.

MSA and Sho Bud designs changed to more HOLES in the pullers ( bell cranks) which we all should agree became the biggest benefit for set up and action. Changers with more UPS and DOWNS made it possible for adding more pulls while at the same time allowing a little more "timing" to the pulls. Emmons was still building PP's when Sho Bud was building 5 hole pullers for the all pull system. So certainly they were not following Emmons ! That 5 hole puller system in my mind set the pace for the future of all pull guitars. Even though they were crummy parts !

I am not exactly sure on the timing window of Emmons changes, but the first all pull Legrand systems had 4 hole pullers, early 80's ? eventually they evolved to the 14 hole puller which certainly was a vast improvement. Todays Steel builders are probably using the design of more holes in pullers which became the normal progression of improvement.

I have always wondered what a 2000 built Sho Bud system would have looked like . The Super Pro system, as we call it, is an excellent system , very easy to set up and time. But we all know that ended in the early 80's. So today we have Sho Pro, Jacksons etc...to my way of thinking they are both an extension of Sho Bud guitars.

The one thing that still bugs me about the Emmons Steels is the way the cross shafts are installed . When working on the first Legrande I had, I could never figure out how to get them out, or if I should at all! I wanted to polish them. But..I didn't..

The Sho Buds I took down to an empty cabinet.

oh well...

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 23 Nov 2015 6:19 am

Tony,
Having the cross bars go all the way across the body instead of having bolted in stops for the E9 neck cross bars seems to cause the Emmons to be a bit less accurate and a bit more stiff also. I remember when Gary Carpenter upgraded the Rains steel by shortening the cross bars when possible that the action and feel of the guitar noticeably improved.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 23 Nov 2015 8:26 am

Danish Modern vs. French Provincial

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 23 Nov 2015 12:41 pm

Not all Sho-Buds are the same. The pickups make a huge difference!

This is my Sho-Bud Professional that I modified and it has a lot of "mileage" on it. I also have a couple Emmons D-11 PP guitars, a cut-tail and a wraparound.

On the Sho-Bud, the bridge pup is a Danny Shields Bigsby copy and there's a 705 with a blend knob. Not everyone I work for wants the "Nashville sound", but the Bud can cut, if need be, and it can make a "fuller" sound by blending in the 705.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 23 Nov 2015 1:54 pm

Get real, Chas. That guitar doesn't count as a Sho~Bud.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 23 Nov 2015 10:13 pm

Herb, now that you mention it, you're probably right, although it does have the gumby heads, body and necks. It also has the birdcage changers that I think sound great.

My 16-11-11 Permanent sounds good, because of all the wood and strings, and I remade a lot of it, but it weighs something like 85lbs.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 23 Nov 2015 11:58 pm

Yeah, but each of Chas' 11 string Emmons' count as doubles they're so cool...

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 25 Nov 2015 5:19 pm

Tony Prior wrote:When Damir puts his Beer down he can add or subtract to my comments !

you have the best of the best...nuff said

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 26 Nov 2015 12:18 pm

Difference is about $2000...

Sho-Bud D-10 $3K
Emmons D10 $5K

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 Nov 2015 6:46 pm

2K difference ? really ?

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 26 Nov 2015 7:09 pm

Tony Prior wrote:2K difference ? really ?

Just a guess. YMMV...

Rich Swiger · Post by **Rich Swiger** » 27 Nov 2015 8:49 am

I have had both My SKH Emmons is like a Porsche. Quick and nimble The Sho Bud more like a Buick. Both have their place. Tone is largely in the hands of the player.

Joe Naylor · Post by **Joe Naylor** » 27 Nov 2015 9:08 am

I play a Desert Rose which is a Sho-Bud type sound with a modern changer, etc

I had a guy come up to me at a gig and said, "that will never sound like an Emmons" - to that I said - "I am OK with that" It stopped him dead in his tracks.

at break he came over to me and ask what I had against Emmons -- I said nothin.. He was still confused.

I just hope he would let it go because I did.

Hal Ruggs told me one time not to try to sounds like Buddy, Curly or anyone else - and the same with steel guitars too. That is what is great about steel guitar - just a slight difference in the sound.

Most people (other than steel guitar junkies) do not know the difference. Just be the best you can on what you play.

Joe Naylor
www.steelseat.com

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 27 Nov 2015 10:36 am

Joe Naylor wrote:
Most people (other than steel guitar junkies) do not know the difference. Just be the best you can on what you play.

Joe Naylor
www.steelseat.com

+1

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 27 Nov 2015 1:21 pm

chris ivey wrote:
Joe Naylor wrote:
Most people (other than steel guitar junkies) do not know the difference. Just be the best you can on what you play.

Joe Naylor
www.steelseat.com
+1

+2

The thing I never quite understood was when they talk about â€œsounds like an Emmonsâ€ itâ€™s never quantified as Mica or Lacquer yet I hear tell, there is a difference in the sound of both... its all very confusing to me... Iâ€™ve heard Buddy play on a whole host of guitars and ALL of them sound good at his hand... the same thing with Sho~Bud, some of the best sounds Iâ€™ve heard are from a Sho~Bud... and an Emmons and a Mullen, (I have a Mullen

) and a from a Zum and Rains and BenRom, and a Franklin too... If I left any out and I did, I heard some of the best sounds from those guitars too... In the right hands I guess... And now Iâ€™ll get off of this topic...

David Ellison · Post by **David Ellison** » 30 Nov 2015 3:12 pm

I think that a lot of what people think of as the "Sho-Bud sound" is actually the Lloyd Green sound â€“ Fender amp with tubes pushing a little bit, less treble. Likewise, I think people buy an Emmons because they want to sound like Buddy Emmons â€“ solid state amp, more bass & treble, less mids, brand new strings, etc.

I'm a much bigger fan of Lloyd Green & tube amps, so you can guess what would be my preference.

Allan Kirby · Post by **Allan Kirby** » 30 Nov 2015 4:23 pm

When I first responded to this thread, I only talked about the mechanical feel of the two guitars because I, like Paul, was transitioning from a Fulawka, which became too heavy for me to move.

I have a push/pull GS-10 Emmons and a model 6139 Sho-Bud. I play both guitars through a Fender amp and really have no idea whose sound I am emulating. I definitely do not sound like Lloyd Green or Buddy Emmons. I really, hopefully, just sound like myself. I play a mix of folk, jazz, and country and am fine with the sounds I produce.

I have been gigging since the mid-1970s and have always varied my amp settings from room to room to attain the mellow sound that I like. Both guitars, which have original pickups, seem to deliver what I want.

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