Old pedal steel pickup impedance??

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I have sent my Truetone back to Jerry Wallace to be rewound to 12 K and about7.5 K.[Its a coil tap pickup with 2 position switch] It was wound 18 k and 12 K. I NEVER used the 18 k as I found it far too dark with not enough brightness . The 12 k was good all around with plenty of power and nice balance. I am trying to get a sound somewhat like an old Fender Sho Bud or ZB on the "bright coil". Jerry has told me via email that the light winding should give me what I'm looking for. Many guys here think I'm crazy and that 12 K is as low as a steel pickup should be wound. My question is this... What were old 60's steel pickups wound to?? I refuse to believe they were all wound 15-20K like todays pickups,but most guys say I'm wrong. I still feel they were very lightly wound by todays standards,and that is the reason so many of us like the sound of the old 60's steels so much. Any one have any knowledge of older steel pickups???? bob

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Old Fender fat ones, pre 1960 400-1000 10.4K
Newer thinner models 8.0K
baz

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Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

1976 Fender Sho-Bud:
E9 - 11.2 kiloohms
C6 - 12.0 kiloohms

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, Sho~Bud Pro-I 3+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400, Line 6 Variax 700

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Bob;
First, the "impedance" term that is used is really resistance (not impedance). The units are "ohms". The resistance values of the "tapped" pickup coils on my Sho Bud Pro (circa 1970) are 24K ohms and 12K ohms; the same for both E9 & C6. Both necks are ten strings. The approximate winding length for the coils is 7" (around).

Older pickups were often for 6 string, 7 string, and 8 string instruments. The coil winding length could/would have been shorter than for the ten strings, 12 strings, and 14 strings of today.

Older pickups were often wound with different diameter magnet wire (gauged, just like strings are). The resistance of a winding turn varies with the length of the turn, and with the gauge of the wire used.

If 34 gauge wire were used, the resistance per foot would be about 0.2613 ohms. If 44 gauge wire were used the resistance per foot would be about 2.593 ohms, or about 10 times the resistance for the same number of turns.

The simplified unloaded output of the pickup is a linear function of the number of turns; double the turns, double the output in volts.

The "inductance" of the pickup increases as the square of the number of turns. The unit of inductance is "Henry's". The "impedance" of a given inductance increases as the signal frequency increases (fat strings are low freq', thin strings are higher freq').

The "capacitance" of the pickup increases as the number of turns increases, the wire size decreases, and varies depending upon the winding configuration (random, scramble, or layer). The impedance of a given capacitance decreases as the frequency increases.

The "impedance" (not the resistance) of a pickup is in ohms, varies with the frequencies ( from 40 Hz to about 5000 Hz on my 14 stringers) involved, and varies with all the above mentioned variables plus the magnet shape and type. Loading the pickup with a volume pedal (pot type) may well change the sound of the pickup.

This is NOT a simple "how many ohms of resistance issue".

Does this help or hurt?

Peter · Posted 26 Sep 2004 10:34 am

I took my 1976 Fender-ShoBud pickup off and replaced it with an Emmons dual coil.
Much Better!

The Fender pickup reads 11.2 kOhms.
I think if you install this pickup on your guitar you might be very unhappy. Maybe I am wrong.

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Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;
Internationally Accredited 3D Animation Academy

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Ed... yikes.. it doesn't help or hurt,but does make me realize how little I know about Ohm's Law and electronics in general.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

My '66 Emmons is at 15.2k?. My '69 was at 14.8k?. Both are E9 pickup readings. Both have a sweet, bright sound. My ZB has a tap at 7.7k?, 14.7k? and 25.6k?. That 7.7k? is way thin. Brumley said he used the middle one all the time. Winding is only one factor though. Magnet field strength, bobbin width, # of windings, coil width, magnet material, flux pattern, wire guage, wire coating, etc. But in general, the lower resistance coil will yield the thinner, brighter sound. After hearing Dickey Overby on his '66 Emmons, I'm considering geting a TrueTone for my push/pull that's wound around 15k?.

Brad Sarno

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 09:07 PM.]

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Bob; The point is that you should not be surprised if the "impedance" that you asked for from the pickup maker does not give the sound from the past that you seem to want when there are so many other factors that could be involved.

Jim; And another "correct" term would be AC impedance. What I was going for was improved terminology and better understanding of the issue.

David Higginbotham · From: Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA

The s/c pickups that were on my '74 MSA have readings of 11.95 & 11.96 respectively. They had that old 60's sound on the E-9 but pretty thin on the c-6. I replaced both with humbuckers to acheive a bit more modern sound while retaining the touch of the older sound.
Dave

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Thanks for the great replies !!.. We'll see what happens. I too have had pickups in the 18-20 K range that were bright,but this particular Carter seems to want an underwound pickup to get a bright sound. As I stated in this post,the 12 K pickup DOES give a good sound,well balanced etc,BUT I originally special ordered a coil tap pickup to give me another option at the flick of the switch. My other steels had at least 2 pickups and my main squeeze MSA had 3 for about 22 years. I had phasing and coil tapping capabilities and LOT and LOTS of switches on that old guitar. It had a GeorgeL 10-5[with 5 positions],a coil tap unit from an ancient Sho Bud,and the stock MSA unit. I got more compliments on tone from other steel players on that old clunker than any other steel I ever used. One steel guy once told me not to use my Pro III anymore because the MSA was a much better sounding steel.I like lots of tonal options and the coil tap is my way of obtaining that flexibliity. I don't expect to use an 8 K winding on every tune,but it may be what I need 25% of the time..... or not.... We'll see... bob

Larry Robbins · From: Fort Edward, New York

Hello Bob,
I recently had Jerry Wallace rewind my coil taps out of my 73 Sho~Bud to 11K and 17.5K. Originally they were 11K and 23K
but, the 23K was a bit too dark for my taste. I do like the sound of these pickups now!! The 11K gives me the vintage sound I love ,and the 17.5K fattens out my bottom for C6 work,or if I want to round out my tone for a specific song or style. Whatever you choose, Jerry Wallace will treat you right!! He DA MANN !

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Sho-Bud ProII,Nash 400,
TC Electronics M300.
"Kindly keep it Country"

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Most all of the (10 string) pickups in the '60s were in the 12k-18k region. (I've never even heard of one wound less than 11k) Fender Stringmasters were wound lighter, but they were 6 & 8 string pickups. IMHO, those '60s sounds were attributable to players' amp settings, and the tube amp/single-coil combination.

IMHO, If your pickups are wound to 11k or 12k, and their sound is still too "dark", your problem is elsewhere.

Jennings Ward · From: Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.

Hey Bob, The input impedence of an amplifier has everything to do with the sound of the guitar, sound of the guitar is somewhat of a missnomer. In an ideal situation the transducer impedence should match that of the amplifier to prevent coloring of the frequencies. ie,,"tone" as some would say. This is very important, the reason for the very best quality cables and vol. pedals to prevent a miss-match..very important at higher frequencies...... Lets not forget that the "Fender Sound" was derived from having matched transducers and matched input pre-amp impedances.....Leo did a lot of research, [trial and errow] to get that sound that most of us love. Paul Bigsby was equally as precise as Leo. I hope this tidbit may in some way be helpfull...The best pickup ever made will sound terrable , missmatched with any amp or low quality amp.The best to all..... Jennings

Play steel for the angellic sound of it.

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

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