Opinions on steels

Chris Haston · Post by **Chris Haston** » 23 Sep 2004 5:44 pm

I'm at that point of wanting my 2nd steel. I know that trying to get any words to describe tone can be pretty pointless, but I was wondering if there are steels that the majority can agree are brighter or darker. Particulary Sho-bud(known to have a darker sound?)Emmons, and the Fessy's and Zums? I'm not sure if this is a fair question, I'm just looking for a darker-toned axe.
Let it begin

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 23 Sep 2004 6:23 pm

I'm guessing that what you mean by darker tone is in fact, less highs and more definition in the mids and bottom. Which could be the guitar or the amp, the volume pedal, or perhaps your picking technique (near the bridge or near the 15th fret).

I tend to lump guitar tone that I want into 3 groups. Emmons as a glassy, elegant sound; Sho-Bud as a raw elegant sound and Bigsby, which is the only thing that sounds like that, to my knowledge. Like you said, describing tone is like describing the flavor of wine (at least the ones that came with a cork in the bottle), presumptuous, but not too aggressive, buttery with a hint of whatever....

So the point might be trying a few different amps also, my experience is they all sound different. Then again, I have a bunch of steels, and they all sound different from each other and each has its own personality, so to speak.

I lean towards vintage guitars, which have their own sets of problems, but I feel it's a minor inconvenience to get the sounds that those instruments make.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 23 Sep 2004 6:45 pm

If we're dealing in generalizations (always risky), I would venture that many players would agree that aluminum-necked steels generally sound brighter than wood-necked steels, which generally sound "warmer". Your mileage may vary, of course but, hey, you asked...

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 23 Sep 2004 10:48 pm

The old MSA's are supposed to be dark sounding, no? Curly Chalker and all that?

-Travis

P.S. My friend Tim Tweedale (forum member) has an MSA and it's REALLY dark through my Session 400. Especially now that he's had the pickup rewound.

David Cobb · Post by **David Cobb** » 23 Sep 2004 11:18 pm

The Zum seems to lean toward the bright side, IMHO.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 23 Sep 2004 11:46 pm

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 06:09 PM.]

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 24 Sep 2004 2:00 am

Jim

Nice tunes....
Very clean and beautifull sound.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 24 Sep 2004 2:02 am

Thanks Ronald, I really appreciate that.

Dave Diehl · Post by **Dave Diehl** » 24 Sep 2004 3:21 am

I would have to echo the comments on the MSA's, especially the wood neck instruments.

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 24 Sep 2004 3:29 am

I'm in the process to build me a D10.And i am adding wooden necks,just because i like a dark sound.I think that aluminum necks have a to much high sound for me.I always liked the sound of the old Sho-Bud guitars.
And that's what i will be trying to copy.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 24 Sep 2004 4:16 am

Chris,

Your location (Nashville) gives you the luxury of trying out lots of guitars, compared to anywhere else in the world.

Drew

------------------
Fessenden D-10 8+8 / Magnatone S-8 (E13)

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 24 Sep 2004 4:52 am

I have a '77 MSA Classic SS with wood necks and BL-710 pickups and there's nothing dark about this guitar. It has a brighter sound than my Williams that has aluminum necks and the same pickups. But having said that, I have never checked the DC resistance of the pickups in both the guitars. The 710's in the Williams came from Jaydee Maness and he may have had them wound different than standard for a darker sound.

------------------
Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 Sep 2004 6:03 am

If what you are looking for is a guitar with a full,focused and rich tone. You can get that out of any of the great steels. For instance the Franklin steel is a very brite guitar but if you listen to the Dire Straights "On every street" CD and you will hear what I'm talking about.
Also no one has suggested Emmons PP. Emmons are thought of as brite guitars but there real strength in the solidness of there mids and lows. It is no problem getting a full rich sound out of an Emmons. You will have all the thick mids and rich lows along with a focus, clarity and sustain that is lacking in what might be called "dark" guitars.

A dark tone without clarity turns into mud pretty fast on the bandstand.

------------------

Bob
intonation help

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 24 September 2004 at 07:05 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 Sep 2004 7:08 am

I have to agree with Bob. If the guitar has too much high end, you can dial it out with the amp EQ, and can also have a pickup that emphasizes the lows more. But if the highs aren't there to begin with in the guitar, you can't really dial them in. Also, sustain and strong highs seem to go together. A lot of what we hear in the highs is the overtones. Because of the relations to sustain, the highest overtones tend to die quickest. A "dark" guitar might not capture the highest overtones, and will let the highs dies quicker. That is why it sounds dark. A guitar like the Emmons p/p has very good sustain, and consequently has rich high overtones. The overtones on the mid and low strings are what give them the clarity we hear in a p/p. The same thing is true for regular guitars. Solid bodies have more sustain and high end ring. Hollow bodies have less sustain and a darker tone. Semi-hollow bodies are in between.

But I agree that darker guitars (whether because of the guitar, pickup or amp EQ) sound better for certain types of music, particularly jazz.

Chris Haston · Post by **Chris Haston** » 24 Sep 2004 7:20 am

Thanks everyone for the quick replys. I'm not a big fan of the super bright steel, which ofcourse I know has much to do with technique and amp/settings. And Drew, speaking of location, I was born and raised in Charlotte, MI

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Sep 2004 7:34 am

Well darker than what?
What are you playing now, and wihch pickups etc?

Chris Haston · Post by **Chris Haston** » 24 Sep 2004 7:49 am

Right now I play a Sierra Artist S10 through a little Fender amp. The Sierra is not a pro guitar, and the Fender is cheap, but I like it. I actually get a pretty full sound out of it. It's not very loud, but it records very well. I'd like to continue in this direction for tone. I'm going to buy a Fender Twin next, but I really want a D10. I like my little Sierra. I wouldn't mind a Session D10, I'm just sure about the state of the company.

Chris Haston · Post by **Chris Haston** » 24 Sep 2004 7:50 am

My Sierra has the George L that came with it. Not sure on model number[This message was edited by Chris Haston on 24 September 2004 at 08:51 AM.]

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 24 Sep 2004 8:59 am

Of course, the pickup has a lot to do with the sound. I played a Carter with regular George Ls, and the combination resulted in a very dark, woody tone. I have recently played through an MSA Classic with BLs on it, and it was VERY bright. I now own a Zum that is bright and crisp, it has True-Tones on it. After hearing Joe Goldmark's "Steelin The Beatles" album, I knew that a Zum would be in my future, and I'm glad I now own one.

As mentioned above, you really are in a good position to check out a lot of steels and decide for yourself. Take a trip down to Broadway a couple of nights and hear Terry Wendt with his Sho-Bud, Eddie Lang with his Williams, John Hughey with his Zum, Mike Sweeney with his Emmons, etc.....and check out Steel Guitar Nashville, where they are more than accomodating in letting you try out every steel in the store, if you want. I did so recently, and found that of the steels in the store, Sho-Buds had the best tone and the GFIs were right behind the Sho-Buds in tone and FIRST in easy playability (pedal action, etc.). I would take my Zum over those guitars, though....

Basically, I'm saying you will be the best judge of what guitar has a "dark" tone. Many people have said MSAs are dark....I have only played through one, and I found it very bright (which I like). You just never know...

Joe[This message was edited by Joe Alterio on 24 September 2004 at 10:01 AM.]

Chris Haston · Post by **Chris Haston** » 24 Sep 2004 9:07 am

Actually I was downtown last night. I live off of 8th Ave, so I have to drive like 5 blocks to get to Tootsies and whatnot. I saw only 1 steeler, a guy on a red Franklin, that was barely audible in the PA at the Stage, which is a big and clean place, but it definately lacks that lower Broad character of some of the other spots. And I do go up to Bobbe's somewhat regularly. I'm not too into GFI's and I can't afford a push pull, and he seems to have lots of those, so...............

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 24 Sep 2004 9:13 am

Someone has to ask it...why can't you just roll the treble down a little, maybe bring up the mids a bit, on what you've got now? It's not easy to make a muddy-sounding instrument crisp, but it's not too hard to darken-up a tone.

Chris Haston · Post by **Chris Haston** » 24 Sep 2004 5:17 pm

Because I am happy with my tone. I want a double 10 and right now I have a S10. I was wanting to know about tonal characteristics of actual guitars, not the amps. Also, I don't really see amp eq as being part of a guitar's tone. It looks like pickup choice might be what I need to check out.
Thanks guys

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 25 Sep 2004 10:03 am

Ever been in a country where you did not speak the language, and try to order a meal? The words that you use for hot, cold, warm etc. are the ones for temperature, not the degree of spiceyness? Same problem here re the Steel,..terminology! Forgivable perhaps because the Steel has not really grown up yet, ..it is a relatively new instrument, and hopefully still changing.

Another analogy is re "taste". Most folk would agree that Italians, Koreans, and Hungarians like their garlic, but each nationality prefers it prepared differently. Within a nationality not all folk like the same amount, so not enough for one is too much for another; some dependence upon what the rest of the meal contains, and how much of what type of wine is to be consumed with the meal. As the line sung by Buddy Emmons on the "Minors Allowed" album asks, .."compared to what".

Do all aluminum necked steels sound the same? Do all wood necked steels sound the same? How about all aluminum bodies with wood necks? How about any of the above combinations with and without the keyless feature? Throw in small rollers with V groves vs. large rollers with U grooves, make these and the changer fingers of different materials, have the strings cross these at different angles, with different gauges/tensions/material/contruction/treatments and neck lengths. Then place a variety of pickups at different places re neck length just to compound the issue a bit.

Now talk about the pickup as if the winding resistance (wrongly referred to as impedance) is a defining characteristic, ignore the shape and strength of the magnetic field, load the pickup with pedals etc. that have a variety of "impedances" that cause different "tonal" (frequency vs time) characteristics (even for the same pickup), drive a varity of line lengths of various cables to the amp/tone circuits, add this to the above, and the problem of defining an instruments processed sound capabilities becomes simple, yes? We need not add amp damping, speaker type, cabinet properties, and location to make the point.

Keeping it simple, just start with the sonic capabilities of the tuner/body/changer/string structure. If you don't have it there, you probably will have trouble adding it further down the signal chain. The difference between instruments will be mostly due to the "coupling" between the strings via the changer configuration/materials. For open strings, the same goes for the coupling via the nut. Next most important is the coupling of the vibrating string to the body/neck et al (thru/via changer/nut structure).

Instruments with easily interchangable pickups are nice to further look for your "sound".

All of the above properties of the resulting sound are easily measured with a frequency spectrum analyzer (software these days). Tone and Sustain are just frequency components vs. time. If you want to see what these look like, just send me a E-mail and I will return E-mail you some actual measurements.

Re what instrument for "dark", ..I use a Sierra Session series, with a tapped pickup for choosable bright/dark/? tones. Sierra is not dead, just asleep. They are preparing a quote for me on a "new concept" instrument with a bunch of changes including a combined tuner/changer mechanism.

edpackard@citlink.net

Steven Black · Post by **Steven Black** » 27 Sep 2004 3:00 am

Try a Desert Rose Guitar by Chuck Back. All wood bodies. steveb.