Jazz Funk Blues Tunning

Pete Knapton · From: Otago, New Zealand

Hi all,

I'm very new to the pedal steel, and catious of asking dumb questions. That said, i'm familiar with lap steel E7th and i read music (not tab).
I have an MSA s10 3p 4kl E9th. I want to play jazz funk blues (sorry, not country).
I'd like to get the steel setup for my needs, before the long haul begins. And hopefully not be playing around with different tunnings for the rest of my days!
I'm after one tunning that can be tweaked a little if needed. So;

Q.If you had a choice of ONLY ONE tunning for this style of music and psg, what would you choose?

Yes, I hear people saying 'but how long is a piece of string?'. Well a general consensus
on something would be helpful. Experience counts.

Thanks in advance

Pete

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I would look into a modified C6 or E13. There is also quite a bit of music in the standard Nashville E9 that has yet to be fully tapped. Let us know what music you come up with once you get going. Its always great to hear people stretching out on the steel.

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Bob
intonation help

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

The jazz funk blues tuning you're looking for is commonly called C6th. Set up your steel just like Buddy Emmons' C6th. You'll have to buy a few extra pedals and knee levers but that won't be difficult. Don't accept any other answers to this question. You want C6th (or B6th) NOT E9th!! Good luck.

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Not a dumb question at all! It's great that you read notation, knowing what the notes are is pretty handy for improvisation on steel.

Another vote for C6. I had a friend loan me an MSA that was 5+4, and Roy Thomas of Pedalmaster Guitars in LA converted it from E9 to C6 for me, very reasonably priced and fast.

I have since moved on to a D-10. The C6 neck is your money neck (or should I say lack of money neck) for jazz, which would also cover blues and funk just fine.

With the C6 neck, you also extend your lower register over an octave below the E9 tuning, which is especially great if you plan on doing any unaccompanied jazz chord soloing.

The Buddy Emmons setup that most of us use includes the raise and lower of the 3rd and 4th strings, which combined with the pedals give you a lot of great altered dominant chords, fat minor voicings, etc.

The blues scale is built right into the tuning as well- aceg is 4 of the 5 notes in the blues pentatonic. Move that bar a bit and you can find more

That said, a player on the level of Randy Beavers can play jazz (including nice extended voicings, etc.) on the E9 tuning just fine.

In my experience (which is not nearly as long and deep as many), the jazz stuff on E9th requires a bit more right hand finesse in terms of grips, whereas on the C6th neck, you get many great "strum" voicings, where almost ANY grip will give you "correct" notes for the chord at hand. On the E9th, the sounds are a little more deeply nested, but you can find them there as well.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff.

Joaquin Murphey solos book info and some free stuff : http://www.johnmcgann.com/joaquin.html

[This message was edited by John McGann on 23 September 2004 at 05:32 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Since you already read music for E7 lap steel, you might be very comfortable with the Sacred Steel E7th tuning. I wrote a web page describing it: http://b0b.com/tunings/sacredsteel.html

The standard C6th is geared towards "jazz chords" - extended chord voicings that have different notes in each octave. When you say "jazz funk blues", it's hard for me to tell how much you use those voicings. The dominant chord voicings used in funk are readily available in the SS E7, but the bebop chord vocabulary isn't as self-evident as it is in C6th.

There is a lot of instructional material (mostly tab) for C6th, and none for SS E7. I don't know if that figures into your decision or not.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

Hi Pete, Mostly I use C6th for the Bluesy stuff - but there is a surprisingly lot of untapped stuff on E9th if you know the tuning well. to answer your qestion about which tuning would do it all if you had a choice of only one - probably a 12 string universal - either Bb6th or E9th/B6th, or as Bobby says a E7th Sacred 12 or 13 string tuning such as Robert Randolph is using. But since most guys need to play some E9th as well, the old D10 does the job with C6th on the back neck !!
Come visit me on my next gig and you will see the C6th playing blues.

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Great advice from everybody. My own two cents:

C6 has a lot of benefits, as mentioned above, but (as was also noted) the E9 is a lot more flexible than some people think (although those stock country licks are just SO easy to play on the tuning, it's hard to resist sometimes). Can you point to any specific songs or parts that would approximate the sound you're going for? That would make it easier to advise as to what tuning is more likely to work.

If you play rock/blues guitar, try figuring out a way to play some of your favorite guitar licks on your E9 tuning. You might be surprised... (An aside: not really in the "blues/funk" idiom, but try playing the solo to "The Wind Cries Mary" in E9--it's almost silly how easy it is.) Of course, as a novice, you might find it tricky to figure out the easiest ways to play certain parts, but it's a good exercise anyways.

Rhythm is another issue. To strum on E9 is possible, but takes a fair amount of control and really good left hand muting (or an appreciation for dense chords...). The C6 tuning has a really low A power chord on the bottom, which is something the E9 can't touch (Extended E9 is another story). If you're playing funk, well, you've obviously got your "standard funk chord"--an E9 chord, after all--and the quick, semi-muted strums that are used in funk actually work pretty well on E9 steel guitar (funk style strumming is one of the few types of strumming that is really effective on steel guitar, IMHO). Lift the bar to mute, and for the desired inversions, don't cover certain strings with the bar--if you want the fifth on top, cover up to the fifth string with the bar. So, don't completely discount the E9 for rhythm playing, as it can be done.

Also, take a look at Dan Tyack's "hybrid" Sacred Steel/E9 tuning for what's probably the best compromise between a strummable rock tuning and the classic E9. You lose the D string, but you gain a lower range and the ability to strum a bit more. Personally, I would want the D string, but you've got to figure out what's going to work best for you--those SS guys get great rhythm sounds.

The more you learn about E9, the more you'll see just how flexible it is. If you're learning blues/rock, you're kind of on your own as far as instruction goes, but hey, your open position has an E and an A chord built in, and that alone should get you through a heck of a lot of songs. Listen to the kind of playing you want to imitate, whether it be steel guitar based or not, and try to copy/approximate it.

Try a couple of the Sacred Steel albums, too, for some excellent ideas. The Sacred Steel tuning is an E7, but the SS players--perhaps counter-intuitively--use it more like a C6 tuning than an E9 tuning. So that's something to consider.

I started out with an Extended E9, and moved to a Universal (hybrid E9/B6), and it's taken a long time to figure out what I like and don't like about the different tunings (I've decided that my next guitar will be a double twelve because, among other reasons, I just miss the D string too much). The "E9 approach" and the "C6/SS E7 approach" to pedal steel guitar (different in terms of stuff like amount of bar movement, grips, etc.) are probably unique enough, and offer different enough advantages, that it's hard for me not to recommend a double neck that's really easy to make changes on. This way you can learn all the basics, figure out how the approach to pedal steel is different than lap steel, and eventually make the changes yourself that work best for you. Once you've learned a sufficient amount of E9, you could easily switch to a hybrid SS/E9 tuning and see what issues come up.

That went on longer than I expected. My bottom line is, learn to play steel guitar, don't learn to play a tuning. The E9 tuning is good enough and flexible enough that time spent with it will not be wasted if you ever decide to switch to another tuning. Especially if you're careful to fully explore all the possibilities with lots of different kinds of music, and not just sit there mashing the A and B pedals.

Any kind of music on any tuning. At the risk of sounding dogmatic, experimenting with different tunings is probably not something a beginner should be doing (although I know how you're feeling--one of my first questions on the forum was almost exactly the same!). Having to work around disadvantages in your tuning in order to get the sounds you want is an essential part of learning to play steel guitar, since ALL tunings will be "less than ideal" for something.

-Travis

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

If you go for a singe neck in any of these tunings get a s12.

If it is based on a Universal set up to begin with,
then you would have enough levers and pedals for any of the above tunings to get pretty darned far.

C6 with enough pedals & levers 5+5 will cover most of your bases for this music. IMHO

I would also say E13 will be in the ball park also, but in a different way.
Works good for swinging jazz without pedals... if you're Tom Morrell.

The Sacred Steel tunings seem a bit more bluesy gospel than funk/ jazz, but could work depending on your harmonic sense... very advanced like a horn section, you might feel a bit limited, but as a B3 keys and lead line thing It would be cool.

Another tuning so far left out is Bb6.
I tried David Wrights steel for 15-20 minutes at ISGC and it was a very cool and versatile 12 string tuining.

It would be logical to get a 4 CDs by good players from the forum store, (free plug) each using one of the avalable tunings,
and with something aproaching your style at least on one number.

This will give you a good idea of the tunings range and basic feel.

If you search the store and post some possible titles then I am SURE you will get lots of feed back.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 23 September 2004 at 05:37 PM.]

Pete Knapton · From: Otago, New Zealand

Where to start?
Thank you so much for your replys. I have since been scratching around in the archives and reading lots. My family think i've been possessed and sometimes I wonder myself. We're certainly fortunate to live in the infomation age.

Having to battle with tuning shortfalls on harmonica for many years i've learnt: 'its not what you've got, its what you do with what you've got!' That said, I appreciate and understand the advise of getting it happening on E9.

While 'funk, jazz, blues' is somewhat vauge, my influences come from the American scene of 1960s to early 70s. Called 'soul jazz' back then. Artists include Grant Green, Lou Donaldson, Lee Morgan, George Benson (early), Jimmy Smith, Sonny Philips, Rusty Bryant, Boogaloo Joe Jones, also some Wes Montgomery and Kenny Burrell, to name a few.
The Grant Green tune 'I Don't Want Nobody' tipifies where i'd like to take steel.
I'm not totally averse to playing country or rock...maybe when i'm financially destitute I'll need to :0

The advise of the C6 tuning got me to quickly retune the lap steel from E7 to B6/Ab7, low to high C Eb Gb Ab B Eb. I got a good feel for the 6th tuning which invited a swing feel. I was also happy with blues for this. I read that some folk yearn for the E9 voicings when they only have C6 psg and visa versa.

I've looked at the ssE7 and hybrid tunings of Bobby Lee and Dan Tyack.
David, I like your suggestion of B3 keys and horn lines. My head if full of horn lines (i should seek help!) and this would be an exciting approach to playing.

What i did find in the archives was Al Marcus' Lean & Mean s10 tuning E9 E6 E13 (6 sept 2001) This is one that i'll definately keep in mind for a later date.

I've learn't from your suggestions and researching the forum. Thank you for all your help, on and off line.

I will put the cart back behind the horse and get to know the E9 neck a little.

With that, do people tune the E9 down a tone or so, enabling thicker gauge strings and fatter tones?

Can anyone recommend E9 instruction for notation (not tab) and for non country tunes? Does such a thing exist?
Currently I have a Mel Bay standard E9 chord diagrame chart, which has no 6th chords or half diminished. Is this one of the obstacles of the E9?

In appreciation
Pete

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I listened to "I Don't Want Nobody" and if that is representative of what you want to play, I would use E9. The song is very simplistic harmonically, consisting of basically one chord. The guitar work is simple but very rhythmic pentatonic blues lines. It's very funky, and what you will need to do to play it is develop a tool-kit of techniques that allow you to superimpose simple pentatonic lines into a funky rhythm feel. The tuning is really NOT the issue, but rather your ability to play interesting rhythmic lines with the simple sets of notes you use. This is all about technique, not about the tuning. I've played tunes like this on occasion and E9 is all you need.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Also, I don't know how much help a standard steel guitar course will be. I don't believe they address the types of things you want to do. They will familiarize you with some basic country licks and chord positions, but you will quickly have to get off that track and find your way into developing suitable techniques that allow you to be funky. On the other hand, you can follow the typical route of learning country tunes like the rest of us did, but it will take you much longer before you get to what you really want to do.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Pete Knapton · From: Otago, New Zealand

Thank you both Earnest and Jeff.

Jeff, as you have an idea of the music style at hand (excuse the pun), would i gain in technique ability by not using picks? I understand that there'd be a sacrifice in tone and note attack. But many great electric guitarists didn't use picks. If i'm not mistaken both Wes Montgomery and Jeff Beck didn't. I definately see the need for picks in country music, but what of the blues jazz feel? Personally, i prefer not to use them on blues lap steel. I like to use my finger tips (as well as my right palm) to dampen the strings. It feels more comfortable especially using 4 or 5 finger vamps. Is it more acceptable not to use picks for blues and jazz?

Pete

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

If you like playing without picks and it gives you the right feel, you might as well do that. You're cutting your own path, so you'll be making up your own rules. And FWIW, there are a few accomplished players who play without picks. Dr. Hugh Jeffreys
is a member of the Forum and a fantastic player who plays jazz with 5 fingers and no picks and is quite a maverick in his own right. His e-mail is hughlinda@prodigy.net and his web-site is http://www.steelguitarbyhughjeffreys.com/

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've found it harder to get a consistent volume on each note without picks. The metal pick surface is more prodictable/reliable than fingernails.

If wide grips don't bother you, the E9th has everything you need. A lot of the chords that people think are missing aren't. You have to start thinking of the 7th or 9th string as a root to get some of the chords.

The only real problem with E9th is that it doesn't go low enough. That's why some of us extend it to 12 strings.

Pete Knapton · From: Otago, New Zealand

Jeff, I've spoken to Dr Jeffreys, he's been very helpful and supportive, thank you.

Bobby,I understand the problems of volume control without picks. This has raised it ugly head on occasions when the band dynamics are low and i've cut over some subtle vocals....i really cringe when that happens! It destroys the softness and any tasteful playing of the steel. I guess i'll have to just work on it some more.
Thanks for the advise re the 9th and 7th strings for the root. I've been focusing on the 8th string.

The steel needs restringing and i'll go with standard gauges for E9th tuning as my learning foundation.
But i got to thinking about the options of lowering the tuning and consequently using thicker guages, which would help the cause for lower notes (at some cost to the higher notes).
I'd imagine the standard MSA ss pick up will cater for any changes.
I'd also need to consider the instrument being played in horn keys.

Pete

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Peter you seem on the right track or tracks.

For horn keys you could just drop it a half step and play from Eb with the normal strings.

A slightly warmer sound, and in horn keys, but using stock string sets.

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