Pickup recommendations please....

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 17 Aug 2004 8:29 pm

I am thinking of swapping the Truetone in my Carter S-10 5+5. It was custom wound to my specs,so I blame ME and not Larry for my dissatisfaction. It is a split coil with a switch.1ts 17 or 18 k and 12 k splittable. It is clear and ok sounding in the 12 k position,but does not have the glassy ,bright sound I am looking for. The 18 k is way too dark and powerful for my taste. I think maybe 8 and 12 would have been a better choice. I REALLY liked my first Carter that had a GeorgeL 10-5 {its a long story.. the guitar was the wrong color,and the pickup had problems at first which turned out to be wires on 5 way switch touching,so it went back]but I do not think they still make that pick up. I am looking for a more "vintage" steel sound,more like an old Fender,Sho Bud or ZB. I know the guitar is capable of it,but I am not sure what kind of pickup I should try..I seem to prefer the sound of "underwound" pickups.. any good suggestions??? bob

Jerry Clardy · Post by **Jerry Clardy** » 17 Aug 2004 8:40 pm

Have you talked to Bud Carter for suggestions?[This message was edited by Jerry Clardy on 17 August 2004 at 09:42 PM.]

jerry wallace · Post by **jerry wallace** » 18 Aug 2004 12:57 am

Bob, if you can do without the pickup for a couple of weeks send it to me and I will take it down to the 8K and 12K that you want..With shipping both ways it will probably take about that much total time to get it rewound and back to you.

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Jerry Wallace/TrueTone pickups-2001 Zum: D-10,8+6, "98 Zum: D-10,8+8,Nashville 1000,Session 500 ,Session 400 head only amp,Tubefex,ProfexII, Artesia, New Mexico
http://www.jerrywallacemusic.com

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 18 Aug 2004 3:16 am

Jerry... I had thought about that and might just do that!!..The Fender tube head/cabinets amps I use are both closed back and have a LOT of bass response. I did not take that into consideration when I ordered the 18 k winding. I will contact you and THANKS for your help! Your service is superb as usual! bob

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 18 Aug 2004 3:34 am

Bob

I now a guy overhere that has 2 brandnew Jerry Wallace truetone pickups 17,5K-Ohm for sale.He would like 130euro for the both of them.

You can contact him by e-mail
info@blue-audioproductions.com

Buyer pays shipping and handling i guess

Ron[This message was edited by Ronald ! on 18 August 2004 at 04:34 AM.][This message was edited by Ronald ! on 18 August 2004 at 04:35 AM.]

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 18 Aug 2004 3:48 am

Bob if you want a Sho Bud or ZB sound you need to just buy one of THEM to get it. You can swap pickups all day and it will not get you there. A Carter is a Carter, a ZB is a ZB etc, but then there is also a PP, but that is another story.

Larry Behm

Bill cole · Post by **Bill cole** » 18 Aug 2004 11:14 am

Not to knock any other pickup but I have yet to find a pickup that sounds better for me then the LXR-16

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Aug 2004 10:22 am

Bill, this is just my opinion, but if a 12k single-coil pickup ain't giving you "bright and glassy", then I don't think the problem is in your pickup.

(A 10-string 12k single-coil pickup should literally scream with highs.)

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 21 Aug 2004 2:23 pm

What Donny said.

16k is the ticket for my Sho~Bud.

Do you have a volume pedal that's robbing you of highs? Wired correctly?

Tried a Hilton Volume Pedal?

Anybody I know that got one has never gone back.

EJL

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 21 Aug 2004 2:55 pm

Donny.. its Bob not Bill

.. anyway I tend to disagree.. As stated in my post,the 12 k position is ok. Its just a tiny tad bassy,but nothing a little knob turning can't handle.I will keep that impedance on the "hot" coil on my pickup,but I feel about 7.5 -8 k is the sound I am looking for.I'll bet that classic steel sound from the 60's and 70's that we grew up with,fell in LOVE with, and have trouble duplicating these days is a result of the lightly wound pickups and Fender tube amps most guys used in those days. Almost everyone here drools over the sound of old Fender pedal steel guitars,and I would bet money those great sounding pickups were 7 k or under.. I talked to Jerry Wallace and thats where I'm going. about 7.5 and 11.5 respectively on the coil/switching setup. I'll bet that gets me where I want to go. I really do find most guys today like a bigger,fatter sound that I do.Give me that airy "underwound" sound anyday. If I need it fatter,I'll turn up the bass.By the way,I have been in contact with Jerry and he is going to rewind the pickup to my revised specs and is not even going to charge for it.I don't think there is a nicer,more dedicated,and decent man servicing us steel players. I would be remiss if I didn't post here about what great service Jerry provides for his customers. He is correcting a mistake I MADE on a custom ordered pickup.He's a Top notch guy!!! bob b

John Wiesner · Post by **John Wiesner** » 21 Aug 2004 2:56 pm

Bob, The Jerry Wallace trutone pickups are a match made in heaven at 18k on a Carter steel. Try setting the height of the PU. about two and one half quarters, below the strings. Also using a amplifier that is made for the steel, makes a big difference. I have always have preferred a tube type amp, but not for the steel. The range of tonal adjustments, means you can make any pickup
sound great.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 21 Aug 2004 4:42 pm

John... sorry,I have to respectfully disagree. The 18 k winding on MY Carter is just way too bassy and dark. As far as amps made for steel,I do NOT use solid state amps for ANYTHING. Fender amps have served me well for steel for 28 years. I have NO problem with the 12 K winding on my pickup. It sounds PLENTY fat IMHO.I just need the "switched" position to give me the bright twangy 60's steel guitar sound I have ringing in my head. As I stated,most steel players today prefer a much fuller sounding pickup than I do. Thats the reason for 27 of my 28 years of pro and semi steel playing I have used steels with multiple pickups with phasing switches or single pickups with coil tapping capabilities. I can go from bright to fat with the flick of the switch. I know a 7-8 k winding will sound the way I want it to. I don't use the 18 k winding position at all.Its got to go!.. I let you guys know how it works out bob

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 21 Aug 2004 5:03 pm

And if you want to get "ahead of the curve", have him make them with a white top plate.

In a month or two, I think a lot of guys will be going to them just like the white fretboards.

I dunno why, I've just got a hunch..

It's still hard to believe that you can't get a "thin" sound out of anything this side of 18k, unless there's something wrong with the vp, or wiring..

Whatever.

Good luck.

Peace Love and above all, Vanity.

EJL

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Aug 2004 5:27 pm

Bob, proceed by all means. My only concerns were that lower-resistance pickups generally give less volume. (The lowest DC Res. 10-string pickups I've ever heard of were 10.5k) If you use a powered pedal, though, that shouldn't be a problem. Pickups are regularly wound in the 6k-8k region for Teles and Strats, but those are 6-string pickups. A 10-stringer would have less output wound to the same specs (DC Res.), due to the fewer turns, but it will still work. I think that the only Stringmaster pickup I ever measured was around 8k, and that was an 8-string pickup.

I know Jerry will give you what you want...keep us posted with the results!

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 21 Aug 2004 6:52 pm

I have TT 18 Kohms on my guitar and it sounds amazing.Like Larry said already, no pick up will make a Carter sound like ZB (pick up only transfers the tone of the guitar to the amp) or MSA sound like a push pull.Tone is in guitar and not in a pick up.If you like tone of ZB buy a ZB if you like MSA buy MSA and so on.Some people buy an all pull guitar and then try different pick ups to get as close to push pull tone as possible instead to buy a push pull on the first place.I could never understand that ,but hey,different people do things different I guess.

Db[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 21 August 2004 at 07:53 PM.]

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 22 Aug 2004 4:10 am

You guys seem to misunderstand. I DO NOT expect my Carter to SOUND like a ZB. I just find the 18 K to be dark sounding and somewhat muddy. That is with GeorgeL cables,and either of my two well functioning pot pedals. C'mon guys I've been at this for 28 years. Please give me just a little credit for knowing what I am doing. I'll state this again. This is a coil tapped pickup. The 12 K position gives a clean full sound with enough highs to be usable,but it still leans a bit toward bassy. It is easily worked with however. The 18 k is just too dark PERIOD .I am using the same equipment I used with several other steels. 3 different MSA's,3 different Sho Buds, a Carter and a Dekley. These guitars were all giving me the sound I wanted. This particular Carter may just be a dark sounding guitar and need a bright pickup,but I know what my ear tells me. The red and black Carter that I sent back,sounded great with a GeorgeL 10-5 after I got the switch wiring repaired and many of the 6 positions on that switchable humbucker were in the 18 k range. I am aware that 18 k is a popular impedance for steel pickups. I ordered an 18 k winding on the recommendation of John Fabian and Jerry Wallace,two pretty knowledgable guys! I just find that on THIS particular steel its too muddy. I may be wrong,but I still say 8 k or therabouts,in conjunction with the 12 k position, will give me the sound I like.I realize there will be a loss in output,but big deal that why amps have a volume knob! We'll see what happens... bob

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 22 Aug 2004 4:55 am

i've got 2 TTs on order for 2 steelers that have Carters (E9 PU)
this what Jerry wrote to me when i was inquiring :

John Fabian at Carter and myself have tryed several different windings on the carters and 18.3K works the best..

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 22 August 2004 at 05:57 AM.]

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 22 Aug 2004 5:31 am

Crowbear.. with all due respect.. I GET it!.. Why do you think I ORDERED one of the coils on mt TT wound to 18 K. Regardless of what the "general consensus" is on the "ideal"
winding impedance on a Carter steel equipped with Truetones should be,I'm telling you that MY Carter sounds muddy in the 18 K position. I know that is not what most guys feel is correct,but I have to play this steel. Lets think of it this way,Why EVER change pickups? If each steel of an individual maker responded exactly the same,why are some great sounding,long sustaining tone monsters while others are lifeless dogs?. They are using the same impedance pickups right? I mean there probably weren't huge variations in windings on the pickups of all 1975 Sho Bud Pro 3 guitars right? Or among all MSA Super Sustain pickups built in 1976. Why are some of any brand steel good and some bad tone wise? Like people they are all individual. Name the brand you like. One will be bright sounding and another will be dark. Another will be mellow and smooth and an identical one wil be harsh and raspy. This Carter has a dark tone. Its not bad sounding,its just bassy. I think that 18 k is not a good choice for THIS Carter. Not all Carters just THIS one..... bob

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 22 Aug 2004 6:04 am

Bob, it may be time to have your hearing aid rewound....

<pre>just funnin' with ya'</pre>

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 22 Aug 2004 7:17 am

WHAT WAS THAT, YA SAY? [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 22 August 2004 at 08:18 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 22 Aug 2004 7:31 am

No sweat Bob - i was'nt insinuating on the 18k, just passin' the info i had -
mileage does vary don't it ?
i'm sure you'll find the winds

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 22 Aug 2004 9:50 am

There again, as Bill at Bill Lawrence will tell you, gauging "OHMS" as a guide for your pickup tone, approaches being overly simplistic if not some other adjective...

Old Bigsbys are a prime example.

Danny Shields before his passing of course wound me an E9 pickups with about half the normal wingings, but out of a different gauge. At the time I didn't realise he was trying to duplicate an older style sound for me, and I sadly no longer have the pickup, BIll wanted me to send it to him for study.

Given the structure and wire size of Jerry Wallace's Tru Tones, and his rebuilt Sho Bud Pups, and their acceptance by people like me as a "benchmark", I only use OHMS as a gauge for what I like to hear out of them. They happen to do the trick for the thin Sho~Bud sound I like given the gauge of wire he uses at 16k.

Personally I don't like the larger Emmons type magnets, and don't feel they have the mid range tone response I like, and I'm not going to boost mods to make up for it.

Talking about how many "OHMS" there are in a winding circuit as to how much AC current is produced is like measuring the ohms in a light bulb, and trying to say that it has virtually ANYTHING to do with how bright the light bulb is.

O personally don't think ANY PSG unles they are made out of foam rubber will dampen the string to pickup thing. Isolated pickups where they are set in rubber don't do anything but make the sound more sterile, and less warm. I guess you could call that "edge", but I don't.

My favorite setup would be a slightly microlitic pickup that picks up a lot of body noise. but it's hard to engineer one thataway I guess. Possibly experiments with condenser mike interaction would be interesting to add body timbre.

Anyhow, it's just not a matter of how much resistance there is in your pickups, unless you're using a standard wire gause, winding method, magnet size, and pickup placement.

If changing your "Ohmage" is the goal, say to "increase your Ohms", sticking a resistor, or in essence, using a lousy connection, in line with your pickup would "Bring Up Your "Ohms".

Accept this?

If not, I suggest a little more in depth study.

There's a lot more to it. That's for sure.

I still think there's something else going on here. Especially on a Fender.

Good luck.

EJL [This message was edited by Eric West on 22 August 2004 at 12:39 PM.]

Larry Hamilton · Post by **Larry Hamilton** » 22 Aug 2004 3:29 pm

Hang in there Bob. They are your ears, your money, your time. Get what you want. If that don't work, try again. You know what you are going for and it might take a couple of trys. I do know that you are with the right man, Jerry Wallace. I have TT 18.5's in my LeGrande and it sounds wonderful fo me. I will probably try some more TT's in the future just for kicks, but for now I'm happy. I'm with and your decisions. Keeps us up to date.

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Keep pickin', Larry