Copedent challenge: calling all geniuses update

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

The challenge is to suggest a couple of changes using the existing rods on this guitar. I could add rods and make a Franklin change but Im interested in just reconfiguring for now.

Its an 8 x 5 Mooney that could be called a hybrid, since 6 of the 8 pedals share the E9 neck (C6 is pretty much std Emmons). In addition it has a lockout mechanism underneath for two strings. Ill post the copedent chart

I recently changed it over from Day setup and included a zero pedal. Pedals 5 and 6 seem kinda useless and redundant in the current (original) config , there is one extra rod for the zero pedal, and I dont know what to do with the lockout.

Thanks for the help.

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Sustainability is unsustainable

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Well, I'm far from being a genius, but if I had a 12 string C6, the first 2 strings would be D on string 1, and B on string 2. That will give you the same scale notes as on the E9. You have the best of both worlds. Both a D and a G.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

Thanks but it is the E9 neck, regarding changes, that I need. So far F D G atop the C6 is very useful. I think finding a way to add an idle 11th string on any C6 neck would serve me well. D G E is plenty.
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Sustainability is unsustainable

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Sorry. I assumed that by posting both copedents, that you might be looking for changes on that neck. I noticed 2 things that caught my attention.

1. You say that P6 is redundant. How so? That change really should be on a knee lever opposite the Eb lever. That is my 3rd most used knee lever. And, you are seeing many players with it on or some that are putting it on. It's almost becoming a standard. If you play with 2 feet, you can hit P6 and have the 6th string split to a G, but it also requires the A & B pedal. Well, the A pedal isn't "required" if you don't want a 3 note 7th chord.

2. I don't understand the RKL lowering string 5 to a G#. I've never seen that change.

3. I also have the 5th string lower to Bb on my P0. It can't be used with both the A & B pedals (unless you have a really big foot), but when I had it on a knee lever, I never used it to split the A pedal for the minor chord.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

No genius here either. But yeah, I'd add the Franklin change on P0 when you get the rods. Without adding rods, I'd probably leave it as-is - note that Bb (enharmonic to A#) is just +1, not +1.5, above G# and gives a 2-chord with P1. But I really would suck it up and get the extra rod or two for a Franklin-type change. My Zums don't have the 10th string lower, it works pretty good with just the two lowers for what I use it for.

But in the meantime,

1. I'd put B=>Bb on LKV, probably for both strings 5 and 10, but at least 5 - the F#=>G# on string 1 also makes sense.

2. I'd definitely put the 6th string G#=>F# change opposite the 4/8 E=>Eb lower - if you leave that on LKR, I'd go RKL. I reverse them and put E=>Eb on RKL and G#=>F# on LKR, but that's strictly personal preference.

3. I'd emphatically have to have RKR D=>C# on string 9, even if I had to put the 5th string C=>B C6 change on RKL and lose the 6th string C=>C# change. But again I'd just get a rod and keep them all. And with that change, you could tune a feel stop on string 2 to go D#=>D=>C#. Or you could just put a straight D#=>C# change on RKL with an extra rod, as I have on my universal Zum, in lieu of the feel stop on RKR. That change is critical for contrary-movement moves like the Emmons cross.

To me, that gets all the truly critical E9 changes except to figure out what you want to do with the top two strings - you'd need some extra rods for the knees to do more typical hot-lick changes.

You're now left with the E9 changes on pedals 5&6 plus the lock changes. Since G=>F# is now moved to LRK, that change is duplicate. That stuff on 5&6 is strictly gravy to me, useful to experiment with. I'd try some stuff and see what works.

On the lock - you could simulate a universal with one extra rod - i.e., lower strings 4/8 to Eb and either raise string 9 D=>Eb unison with string 8, or perhaps lower it to C# to give a 6th-interval in the unlocked E-tuning or a 2nd interval in the locked B-tuning.

Just some ideas. You have a lot to work with.

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

This is the lockout - what are your ideas for it? I tried to find E13 or E major changes. Not sure what the purpose is, the way its set up. I have up 2 rods in place.

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Sustainability is unsustainable

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

Richard. re: RKL string 5 to G#

Thanks for the comments. That RKL was part of the original setup. With A&B it drops less, like a half tone. Gives you a IV seventh chord. used alone.....who knows.

I have the factory correspondence where the owner wanted to "lock the 7th and 9th strings back into the regular" This was his open tuning, and he had a day setup strings 1 to 12

F# Eb G# E B G# D E A B Ab E

Perhaps you can figure out what he was doing with the lockout removed. He laid out those pedals on a sketch of paper so it was all designed on purpose.

sharing those pedals isnt the best idea. Kinda like driving an old pickup truck.

Cheers
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Sustainability is unsustainable

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'm no genius, just a goofball who tries to help.
I'd put on P1: 1 to G#, 2 to E and maybe 7 to G#
P2 A pedal and maybe drop 12 to C#
P3 B
P4 C
P5 the Franklin drop
LKL: Es to F
LKV 5 (maybe also 10) to A
LKR Es to D#
RKL 1 to G, 6 and 11 to F#
RKR 2 and 9 to C#
On C6th
LKL (I prefer LKV, but I'm just used to it there) G#s to A (if you're mechanically clever, make it master over the B pedal or vice versa)
I like your 6 lower on a knee but I'd move it. LKR make P5, moving 6, 7 & 8 over one.
LKR: P5P5 (this eliminates the double-footing of 5/7 and 5/ Cool

P4: standard P4
P5: standard P6
P6: standard P7
P7: standard P8
P8: 5 and 9 to C# (it may look redundant, but it's kinda cool, even if you have the high G)
RKL: 6 to Ab, 10 to G. I got this change from Mike Auldridge, it's been pretty cool.
RKR: 5 to B.
Sinkler has a change that works with P7 to give a Dobro tuning, if you wanted a third left knee on that neck (I combine P5 with the C raises to give me an A6th, one step up from 8 string Dobro instead).
That's my input.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Using the locking mech. on the E9th, I'd probably use it with the F#'s to G. Lots of Ralph Mooney style licks there, especially on the high F# to G. I'd also look at Tom Brumley's using the 11th string playing guitar fill licks behind Don Rich on the early Buck Owens Ranch Shows. D-12 opens a mountain of different things. Good luck.

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