Emmons PP and the split 'G' workaround

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 8 Aug 2015 5:25 pm

A couple of questions, particularly for all the long time push-pull tinkerers around here and others who like to use the split G on string six on their all-pull guitars.

The subject of splits came up again in a recent PP related thread. True splits are still, as far as I know, impossible on a PP, but there is of course the fairly standard workaround for the typical split 'G' note on six that has been discussed here -- lower to F# on a lever, then add a tunable stop to the string six raise rod on the A pedal to limit the lower to only 1/2 step to G when the A pedal is engaged. Thus, when the lever is engaged along with the A pedal, releasing the B pedal gives you that nice descending A-to-G on string six to yield a 7 chord. Not quite the same as a properly tuned split on an all-pull guitar but it does the job.

I just added a much simpler version of this to my PP, just lowering six a half-step to G on a lever and not involving the A pedal (and the 1/2 step didn't require much additional slack). It works the same to get the pedals-down 7 chord, but also allows an open E minor as it is not dependent on the A pedal. I've had the standard split change on a couple of other all-pull guitars but never used it for anything but the pedals-down 7 chord. Never used the extra F# for anything.

My question to those of you who have this change on a PP, and those who have the standard split change on an all-pull guitar is, do you use the extra F# on six for anything else, or is strictly to get the split G? Are there other worthwhile uses, countermotion/pivot moves, etc. for the G#-F# change?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 8 Aug 2015 6:17 pm

It is TOTALLY a useful change.

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 8 Aug 2015 6:45 pm

I just knew you'd be the first to reply Lane! Thanks, the question was, what other uses (if any) are there for the lowered F# beside using it to split the G# to G? What I've just done on my PP gives me the G and the pedals-down 7 chord like a split would but not the fully lowered six to F#, which I wouldn't (currently) have any use for by itself.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 8 Aug 2015 6:56 pm

It's mainly an inverse A pedal. That means either dropping a 3 to a 9 or dropping a 6 to A 5.
If the chord at the nut is G#m, you drop root to 7 (or strike the note lowered, releasing it to take you back to root.
If you're playing B at the nut, you can engage it to drop from 6 to 5 (or release it to go from 5 to 6)
C#m? Drop 5 to 4
In the old (1970s) Emmons tab, Crazy Arms in G had Buddy hitting that lever to go from C to G on the 8th fret, striking it as an E note and quickly pulling down to D.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 8 Aug 2015 7:23 pm

Watch Zane King. His wrist lever is that drop.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 8 Aug 2015 8:39 pm

The F# is used with the E to D# lever to get a 1 chord two frets down from the A & B pedal position. The 4 note movement possibilites on string 6 makes for some nice melody movements, especially when used with moving between that position and the A & B position.

And, as Lane said, it,s the inverse of the A pedal. A real nice run from a 4 to a 1 chord is to pick string 4... String 5A... 5.. 6B.. 6... 6lower... 8. I'm on my iPad right now. And it would be a real pain to try to tab that run. I could do it tomorrow if anyone wants.

And as Lane also said, it's a real useful change. Just watch videos of Emmons and Hughey. They used it a lot.

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 8 Aug 2015 8:40 pm

Thanks Lane, I like the 'inverse A pedal' analogy. So, useful along with E lower, smooth transitions in places where you would otherwise use just the open F# such as toggling between 6th & 5th or descending from I to V or from IV to I. The C#m scenario you mention is affected by the limitation on the PP faux split being tied to the A pedal but that actually produces a nice diminished chord instead.

I would just need to make up a couple of longer rods to get enough slack for a whole step drop on six and to add the limiting stop on the A pedal, then I could try it out. I'll give it a whirl tomorrow.

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 8 Aug 2015 9:13 pm

Thanks Richard, you slipped one in while I was typing. Stuff like the end of run you mention I would normally just drop back 2 frets on 6 and grab the last note on 7, but that doesn't allow you you grab that whole 1 chord at the end without sliding back up. I'm going to try the full drop to F# tomorrow. I've had this change on a couple of other all pull guitars but ended up switching it for something else. I have the F# raise for string 4 on a knee, I find it very useful for lots of things the C pedal can't do (sort of like an A pedal with pedals down). But everything is a tradeoff on a PSG.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 8 Aug 2015 9:30 pm

I came up with the idea of stopping the backward motion of the 6th string raise rod (when the A pedal is pressed) about 2 years ago, and prided myself with my lateral thinking, imagining that I had re-invented the wheel.

Now I find out that this has been a standard procedure on push-pulls for years, is there an emoticon for feeling deflated ? $:\$

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 8 Aug 2015 9:57 pm

You're still a badass Richard. Newton and Leibniz both invented calculus independent of one another. You were the first person I'd heard it from, I just didn't have a PP then.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 9 Aug 2015 2:40 am

Richard, for some silly reason, folks draw a border between pull-release and push-pull, when the lowering rod on the pull-release acts like the lowering finger of the push-pull.
And I'm not sure it counts as standard practice, when so many people don't seem to know about it.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 9 Aug 2015 5:07 am

I had a full G# to F# knee lever change on my 71 PP Emmons. I also had a half stop (feel stop) to just lower it from G# to G. Used it that way for 10 years (until I sold the Emmons).

Johnny Cox and I put that half stop on my Emmons using parts that Johnny scrounged from Duane at Sho-Bud.

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 9 Aug 2015 2:43 pm

It is my understanding the b to c# raise on the "a" pedal doesn't work with the split on g#. On my all pull whenever I use the half stop to G I am ALWAYS using the "a" pedal change to c# ???

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 9 Aug 2015 2:49 pm

I'm not sure what you're asking. It needs a third bellcrank on the A pedal shaft, and a longer pull rod for the B pedal (unless you play Day).

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 9 Aug 2015 3:29 pm

Ron, the caveat with the workaround (as it appears to be set up on your guitar) only affects string six. The tunable G note on string six only works when the A pedal is engaged (raised to C#) and the B pedal is released. Otherwise the lever will drop string six all the way to F#. Engage the A pedal and the lever together and release the the B pedal you get the G note on six, release both A and B pedals and six drops to F#.

Or are you saying you want to be able to use the A pedal independently while maintaining the G note on six? Jack's idea with the half stop would do that

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 9 Aug 2015 3:53 pm

So being that the change uses the a pedal does that mean when the a and b pedal are depressed along with the knee that lowers g# to f# am I getting a c# or or a b on the 5th string?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 9 Aug 2015 3:57 pm

When you press just the A pedal, the 5th string has a C#, and the 6th string has a G#
A pedal and B pedal, 5th string C#, 6th string A
A pedal plus knee lever, 5th string C#, 6th string G
A pedal, B pedal plus knee lever, 5th string C#, 6th string A.

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 9 Aug 2015 4:03 pm

The reason I was asking is in a previous thread I was told that the bell crank added to the a pedal when depressed with the knee that lowers the G# to F# the slack needed will void the c# and return the string to b.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 9 Aug 2015 4:05 pm

Nope. Someone had their understanding maladjusted.

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 10 Aug 2015 8:02 pm

I realized after rereading your post that I need to stay off the b pedal to get the G. It works. I was so used to my all-pull guitars and thought I could get the G with both pedals down. One slight dilemma is the tuning I am used to has E's lowered on rkl and g# lowered on lkr. So to get the split I have to hit the a pedal and go lkr at the same time. A little contorted but doable. Lol.
Labor day weekend I'm on my way to California to Jim Palenscar to swap everything around for me. Can't wait.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 15 Aug 2015 12:13 am

I have temporarily disabled the 'split' mechanism that I put on my Marlen, as there's been a couple of times that I wanted to use the 'A' pedal and lower the 6th string a full tone at the same time, and I couldn't do that with my 'split' device.

As luck would have it, there's a hole in the endplate (headstock end) where the carrying handle used to bolt on, so I've utilised that to mount a makeshift half-stop assembly, so now I have a sixth string full-tone drop on my RKL, with the half-tone assembly being used for the 'feel' stop.

Hitting the semitone drop is not as positive as the previous method, but I think I will get used to it after a bit of practice

The Steel Guitar Forum

Emmons PP and the split 'G' workaround

Emmons PP and the split 'G' workaround

G# to F#

Lane I reread your post.