"Touch & Tone"- Is it the speaker or the amp?

Gordy Rex · From: Southport, NC

What do we really like about the tone we have or the tone we are looking for? Is it the feel of the amp or the sound of the speaker?

Seems like those of us (me) that have used Peavey for 30+ years, are still looking for something else, but always go back to the Peavey sound.

And those that oppose the Peavey sound seem to like that thin guitar type tone from their amp, whatever brand it is.

And of course then we have the "tube amp" only guys that love their amps for that "warm tube" sound...

Then we have the guys that change the speaker in what ever amp they just bought to make it sound like the amp they didn't want... "I put a black widow in my Evans now it sounds great". or Lets put an EPS in my Nashville 112, or nothing sounds better then a JBL-130....

And how many posts have we seen " just got this new amp and it's killer, best thing I ever played through. but in a few months it's in the classifieds for sale... Oh Well

I'm not ashamed to admit I get really confused at all the different scenarios I've been reading about over the last few years regarding amps and speakers. And it seems each new amp has it's own speaker designed for it... not to mention the signature speakers that are currently being developed by companies and individuals...

So, is it the sound of the speaker we love, or the electronics of the amp...

Maybe I should stop buying amps and start buying speakers....

BTW... I'm not even gonna talk about guitar tone, I sound like me no matter what guitar I play....I'm convinced guitar tone preference is all in the fret board, we either like it or we don't.... Very Happy

that hit me when I had an Emmons fret board on a Fessy, played and sounded just like an Emmons to my ear... and we all know those white fret boards have the wonderful old time sound... Smile

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Gordy Rex
Current guitar '78 Rosewood Emmons PP 8 X 6, La Grande II..8X8...

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I certainly have not tried all the amps and speakers that are available. I played Peavey Session 400s with Black Widows for most of my career. Recently I've been playing tube amps with JBLs, a Milkman Mini with a K130, and a 1971 Twin Reverb with a D120f and a K120. At times the K130 was in the Twin. I've also tried a couple neo speakers.

I've tried every combination of amps and speakers of the equipment that I've owned. In my experience the speakers all sound good, but the JBLs are the clear winners.

However, the biggest difference came from the amps. The tube amps are much more pleasing to my ear. Switching to good tube amps made a much more dramatic difference than switching speakers.

Having said that, I have recordings of my playing using the Peaveys and Black Widows, and most of the time the steel sounds really good.

The biggest factor, of course, is how much I've been practicing.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Gordy Rex · From: Southport, NC

thanks for the info Paul.... sounds like you've been doing what I have also... You would think that after all these years of picking I would have conceded that everyone has better tone than I do, to my ear..
Very Happy

I was hoping to get more conversation on this subject so I could learn more about what others are doing or thinking.... maybe over the week-end....
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Gordy Rex
Current guitar '78 Rosewood Emmons PP 8 X 6, La Grande II..8X8...

Charley Paul · From: California, USA

In my experience, the speaker has been the most important part of the signal chain. This, of course, assumes that every link in the signal chain is at least of reasonable professional quality....

I am finding that regardless of setup, I will bring to gigs whatever speaker cab gets me the sound I am looking for. I switch between a Matrix NL12, a 1x12 loaded with a 12-65 speaker, and a 1x12 with a Telonics TSNEO12.

Usually, I am using the same pedalboard, and either a Boogie MK1 RI or a Quilter Tone Block. I usually set my amps up for reasonably neutral loud/clean sound. I do, however, like a bit of color from a Neve style preamp pedal that I always keep on....it just gives a bit of attitude to the sound!

George Redmon · From: Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.

Bill L. Wilson · From: Oklahoma, USA

My experience swapping speakers goes back to the late 60's. Awhile back my Twin Rvb w/JBL's started cracking the speakers when pushed really hard. So, I swapped'em out w/a pair of EV-12L's that I had laying around. Found out through the Forum, that the JBL's were wired backwards, so I pulled the EV's and reinstalled the JBL's. I can honestly say, the D-120F Orange frame speakers sound better to my old ears than the EV's. And that doesn't mean the EV's are bad, just the JBL's sound better. And the JBL's quit cracking when I changed the Hot wire to Black and the Red to Ground. I now use those EV's in a 2-12 cabinet w/a 100watt Marshall head for guitar at loud venues....At really loud shows, I'll hook-up both 4x12 cabs. loaded with Celestions and Peel Paint off the Walls....It reminds me of the days of my youth, when I was a "Texas Blues Man" from Oak Cliff, if you couldn't play good, you at least played loud.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

kind of a moot point to me as i really don't care that much anymore, but i was using a nv400bw and my guitar player used a nv400 w/jbl k model. we switched one time and i actually thought his was a little sweeter and smoother. but the difference isn't so much that your playing ability isn't much more important.
hauling a twin or some other lead weight around seems dumb to me.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

A Twin with a single 15 JBL weighs almost exactly the same as a NV400 with a Black Widow; perhaps the Twin is slightly more, but not by much. Tone-wise there is no comparison.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I view my instrument as the combination of all of its components: guitar, volume pedal, cables, amp and speaker. Of these, I think that the guitar pickup and the speaker have the most profound effect on tone. If the tone isn't there in the pickup, nothing downstream can save it. And if the tone can't be reproduced by the speaker, nothing upstream can save it. Everything in between is important, but you can usually find settings that will work if you have a great pickup and a great speaker.
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

maybe the one 15 twins are lighter. i don't think i ever lifted one. never really appreciated tubes though i played through a super reverb for a couple years. i always liked the immediate response of the peaveys.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I think absolutely everything matters. I also think that one or more things up the chain can often compensate for one or more things down the chain, or vice-versa. The chain is long and complex - brain, hands, picks, strings, guitar, volume pedal, cables, pedals (if any), amp, speaker, speaker cabinet, and acoustics of the venue/room, and perhaps some other stuff too.

But IMO, the biggest issue is that which is on the seat behind the guitar. I'm not saying the equipment doesn't matter - it does. There are obviously limits in the ability of particular equipment to deliver various sounds. But if the sounds you want are within those limits, and I think most good equipment has reasonably wide limits, I think the ability to figure out how to manipulate all this stuff to get the sound you want is king. As far as equipment goes, I think knowing where there might be a problem in the equipment chain is perhaps most important. For example, you need to know if the problem is that the speaker(s) can't deliver what you want - otherwise, you may wind up uselessly throwing a bigger amp at it, which in that case is not the problem. Or maybe the issue is reversed from that. Or perhaps it's something entirely different.

I also think a lot of this is determined by how loud you need that sound to be. I am sometimes amazed by how big a sound one can get by properly micing a small amp or speaker that one wouldn't think would give a big sound. Scaling is critical.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Along the lines of everything matters:

Yesterday I tried out a new set of finger picks; not the thumb pick, just the two metal picks. I have been using .025 Dunlops and generally been pleased, but the middle finger pick was getting a visible groove, so I thought it best to break in a new set.

I splurged and bought Sammy Shelor stainless steel picks from Janet Davis Music; $37 for two finger picks-yikes!!

These picks seem to make an audible difference. The high strings in particular seems to ring cleaner and clearer. The difference is not huge, but I hear enough of a difference to not feel foolish for spending so much money on a set of finger picks.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Just an anecdote. Recently I bought a few things the last few months, but have not really had a chance to fully explore. These include a Little Walter 50W head, then a 70s Session 400 in a cut down cab with a Telonics 12" neo speaker, and last week a LW cab with a Telonics 12" neo. Yes, I was that impressed with the Session 400 with the Telonics.

So this afternoon I sat down with 2 Zums and those two amps. I first tried the S12 universal Zum with a Lawrence 912 pup, which is the more midrangey of Bill's pickups. First into the LW with a different cab with a Weber 50W guitar speaker that sounds fantastic with a super-clean, scooped-mids blackface/silverface type of amp. Sounded ratty - distorted far too early for me. Then plugged the amp into the LW cab with the Telonics 12" - very nice - almost a very Sho Bud like tone, a little hair but sweet as long as I didn't push the amp real hard. Then into the Session 400 with the Telonics - absolutely magic at all volume levels. I mean, unbelievable, the chimes were just rolling off my fingers, pristine, as if in great Emmons push-pull territory. It sounded like a different guitar. That amp/speaker combination was made for that guitar/PUP/etc, to my tastes.

Now the D10 Zum with a pair of perfect 17.5K wound Truetones in it. LW into the Weber, not bad. That combo won't get loud without getting into distorted territory, but it sounds good for that kind of thing, which I do sometimes. Next, LW into the LW cab with the Telonics - just fantastic. Sparkly but warm - a little bit Sho-Bud-y but it just sparkles. Now into the Session 400 with Telonics - had to seriously back off the highs, but again, very nice. But I think I liked that guitar into the LW better. Yeah, the pickup made that much difference. I suppose some of it may be the guitar, hard to say without doing a pickup swap.

Object lesson? LW has the 'sparkly but warm' thing down, as long as the pickup doesn't overload it. It's just 50 watts, so it won't gonna stay on top of a super leadfoot-pounding drummer, but for most things I do, I think it's gonna be great with that D10 Zum and I'm confident with my Franklin also - those two guitars are fairly similar, didn't have time to take it out. The other thing is that the LW is a really fantastic guitar amp, and I always double on guitar. But if I really want the super-sparkly sound, that Session 400 with the 12" Telonics is the amp, especially with that 900-series Lawrence pickup. I'm sure my blues-guitar-nazi buddies will whine that it's bright, they want a Princeton or Deluxe Reverb no matter how loud and inappropriate the situation. But me and my hardcore country buddies will love it. And it weighs about the same as my Vibrolux Reverb (< 50 lb).

Try some stuff. I'm frequently surprised when I do.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

I went for steel picks about 25 years ago, and have never looked back. Smile

The "touch and tone" starts with the picks hitting the strings, and steel picks let me go from the sharpest to the softest - just had to learn how to "exploit" those hard picks, starting by un-learning all about picking with softer picks.

As for the equipment side of "touch and tone" ... strings & PU comes first, as what doesn't come out through the PSGs jack can not be amplified.

At about the same time as switching to steel picks, I rigged up my measuring equipment to my studio set-up of amps and speakers, and went for a one-to-one tone and dynamic response reproduction of what came out of my PSG. Once I've found that I could start to "color" the sound reproduction the way I wanted, which actually wasn't far from the one-to-one reproduction.
In essence: I did not want to alter what came out of my PSG very much, as I was happy with my PSG's own tone.

Although my studio equipment was able to reproduce my PSG's tone, with reasonable good dynamic response, not a single amp marketed for steel was anywhere near. So I built my own that came within range. Efficient and clean and with extremely good response, but too heavy - transmission-lines add weight. After a few years I put it on the shelf.

The NV-112s with original speakers I use now, are not nearly up to the job, but the power-stage in those boxes isn't bad so that's what I use of that amp.
Open back cabinets isn't "my thing", but for the relevant frequency range it doesn't hurt too much. I think maybe a Telonics speaker will improve on response, but the original speaker does a decent job when not pushed too hard so I am in no hurry to replace it.

Thing is: I adjust my "touch and tone" in playing to what the entire sound-chain sounds like, and since there are no knobs to adjust on other than volume in my sound-chains, it all fly or falls with my ears and picking technique.

My ears are well trained after having worked with natural and generated/reproduced sound for more than half a century, so if something doesn't sound right it is my picking and control of the instrument that is off. No equipment can fix that.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

you guys must all play alot!

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Gordy Rex · From: Southport, NC

Now we're getting some info here... thanks guys...

I'm curious to see how Travis Toy's new speaker works out....

Dave, is that an old Session 400 or the newer 400 Limited?
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Gordy Rex
Current guitar '78 Rosewood Emmons PP 8 X 6, La Grande II..8X8...

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Gordy Rex · From: Southport, NC

Lane you are correct by the time I finished reading all the posts I forgot I read that....

Confused

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Gordy Rex
Current guitar '78 Rosewood Emmons PP 8 X 6, La Grande II..8X8...

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Dan, it's a Session 400, not an LTD 400, and here's the amp I'm talking about - I got it from the Amps/Accessories buy/sell in May - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=2391212

Chuck told me he cut the cab down 3 inches. It's shorter but the same width - you can't narrow the width with this chassis. If I didn't know what an unmodified Session 400 looked like, it would be hard to tell it's been cut down, and it appears he took it from the bottom. Cut down like this and with this speaker, it's about the weight of a Vibrolux Reverb. I assume he cut the original baffle to fit, and it's painted a gloss-black - it looks like he painted it. That could be part of the sound - I really do think everything matters.

The sound is absolutely sparkling - pretty much everything I like about a clean Twin Reverb but a bit more direct - perhaps a little less flabby in the bottom end. And really good-sounding reverb and tremelo. I don't think I'll have any problem using this for clean guitar if I'm careful about the treble settings. But it is a clean machine - it stays clean to the top.

If you want to try a 12" speaker in a stock Session 400, I'd suggest cutting a new baffle with a hole for a 12" speaker. Pull the old baffle and store it in case you want to change back. But my take is that cabinet dimensions can affect the sound significantly, and there's something about the tightness of this particular cut-down cab + 12" speaker combination that I like. You should probably also figure out what the original baffle is made out of - I'm assuming something like 1/2" or 5/8" plywood, but I haven't pulled it to check. In fact, I don't want to mess with it - it has the right mojo as-is.

Now, I also really like a stock Session 400 - in fact I have had a 70s LTD 400 for a long time, which is the same amp circuit in a narrower-width cabinet. But I have to say that I have come to the conclusion that I prefer the wider Session 400 cab after playing a bunch. And I guess I'm more into the slightly tighter sound of a good 12" speaker in most situations.

I'm also pretty confident this Telonics Neo 12-4 (4 ohm) speaker is part of the equation here, for me at least. Of course, everybody has different tastes, but this speaker seems to have a little extra something that brings alive every amp I've tried it with. Sparkly but not shrill. And nobody's paying me to say this. Laughing

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I did a remote session yesterday where the producer wanted a Di sound and an amp with mic sound.

Amp is a Milkman Mini w/JBL D120

https://soundcloud.com/bobhoffnar/stltst-amp

DI is a Sarno V8

https://soundcloud.com/bobhoffnar/stltst-di

I didn't use any plug ins or EQ. Everything is exactly as it was recorded.
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Bob

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Where's the echo coming from, Bob?
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Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I used a little amp reverb and a little delay from a carbon copy pedal. It's my usual recording amp sound. The mic was a Lawson 47fet into a FMR RNP8380 pre into a FMR RNC1773 on "really nice" into an RME fireface converter.

The V8 is direct into the RME converter.

I split the signal at the Goodrich volume pedal.
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Bob

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I tried a Carbon Copy pedal and felt that it colored my sound quite a bit compared to other delay units. I use a Lexicon MPX-100 or a Pod XT - both are very transparent. In the studio, I let the producer decide from the plugins he has available. They are always better than what I have in my case.
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