All that Jazz...
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- Stefan Robertson
- Posts: 1846
- Joined: 24 Nov 2013 9:34 am
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
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All that Jazz...
So great to have any input especially from you all here on the forum.
After a month of moving flat in London I will be back to practice this weekend.
Inversions and common voicings
Where do I begin?
Looked at some guitar video tutorials and tried to transpose but am realising that some limitations are due to tuning and knowledge for inversions.
Example. I can find all of my 7th chord inversions but only have 1 inversion available for my Maj7.
So this now makes me have to start my journey into Chord substitution to fill in the gaps.
Is there a guide for chord subs for major/Dom/min 7ths ?
After a month of moving flat in London I will be back to practice this weekend.
Inversions and common voicings
Where do I begin?
Looked at some guitar video tutorials and tried to transpose but am realising that some limitations are due to tuning and knowledge for inversions.
Example. I can find all of my 7th chord inversions but only have 1 inversion available for my Maj7.
So this now makes me have to start my journey into Chord substitution to fill in the gaps.
Is there a guide for chord subs for major/Dom/min 7ths ?
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
- Paul Seager
- Posts: 424
- Joined: 20 Aug 2010 7:41 am
- Location: Augsburg, Germany
Take a look at John Ely's site, particularly his chord locator:
http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/chordlocator/generic.php
http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/chordlocator/generic.php
\paul
Bayern Hawaiians: https://www.youtube.com/@diebayernhawaiians3062
Other stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@paulseager3796/videos
Bayern Hawaiians: https://www.youtube.com/@diebayernhawaiians3062
Other stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@paulseager3796/videos
I have been making strides at dealing with this for several years. My conclusions:
1. I will never be able to find all inversions of chords, especially chords of 4 notes and more.
2. I have to use my knowledge of harmony to simplify things so that I can present what I need without compromising too much.
3. It becomes a matter of reduction and substitution. Almost all chords can be represented by major, minor, diminished and augmented triads, sometimes in combination.
4. If that doesn't satisfy, then pick up my guitar.
My favorite voicing of a Maj7 chord is impossible on steel guitar (possible on pedal steel). It's construction is: 3 7 R 5
CMaj7 (on standard guitar)
x x 2 4 1 3
Just beautiful. If you dissect it, it is two dyads (E & C)+(B & G). This is how I think in terms of chords.
1. I will never be able to find all inversions of chords, especially chords of 4 notes and more.
2. I have to use my knowledge of harmony to simplify things so that I can present what I need without compromising too much.
3. It becomes a matter of reduction and substitution. Almost all chords can be represented by major, minor, diminished and augmented triads, sometimes in combination.
4. If that doesn't satisfy, then pick up my guitar.
My favorite voicing of a Maj7 chord is impossible on steel guitar (possible on pedal steel). It's construction is: 3 7 R 5
CMaj7 (on standard guitar)
x x 2 4 1 3
Just beautiful. If you dissect it, it is two dyads (E & C)+(B & G). This is how I think in terms of chords.
- Stefan Robertson
- Posts: 1846
- Joined: 24 Nov 2013 9:34 am
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
- Contact:
Any books you can recommend on chord substitution or just google?
As I use mainly embellishments as opposed to substitutions and it's time I learn how and when to know what to apply.
As I use mainly embellishments as opposed to substitutions and it's time I learn how and when to know what to apply.
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
Ok, Mike, I give up; where's it hiding (on PSG)? So far I only found it (on C6; didn't check E9) by including some open strings, but then the voicing isn't movable. Whatchu got?Mike Neer wrote:
My favorite voicing of a Maj7 chord is impossible on steel guitar (possible on pedal steel). It's construction is: 3 7 R 5
Last edited by Jim Cohen on 14 Jul 2015 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ok, Mike, I give up; where's it hiding (on PSG)? So far I only found it (on C6; didn't check E9) by including some open strings, but then the voicing isn't movable. Whatchu got?Mike Neer wrote:
My favorite voicing of a Maj7 chord is impossible on steel guitar (possible on pedal steel). It's construction is: 3 7 R 5
-
- Posts: 271
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- Location: Victoria, Australia
Paul wrote" Post Posted 14 Jul 2015 5:27 am Reply with quote
Take a look at John Ely's site, particularly his chord locator:''
http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/chordlocator/generic.php
I tried my F13th tuning Paul, (from low Eb.F.A.C.D.F high) and a message came back indicating ''invalid note" for ALL notes entered?
I'm assuming the ''top string" = high and the 6th string = low? In any event when I reversed the note entry, I still got the invalid note message.
Could you advise me please?
thanks,
John
Take a look at John Ely's site, particularly his chord locator:''
http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/chordlocator/generic.php
I tried my F13th tuning Paul, (from low Eb.F.A.C.D.F high) and a message came back indicating ''invalid note" for ALL notes entered?
I'm assuming the ''top string" = high and the 6th string = low? In any event when I reversed the note entry, I still got the invalid note message.
Could you advise me please?
thanks,
John
- Guy Cundell
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- Guy Cundell
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- Joined: 31 Jul 2008 7:12 am
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Er.. sorry for the thread drift there, Stefan. There is a lot of material out there on substitution. Joe Pass Guitar Style for example had a good section. Tritone substitution is the biggie. You might include 'chord plurality' in any Google search. That is a concept that feeds substitution. One needs a good grasp of functional harmony to begin with, which I am sure you have.
Maybe it's not--I don't have the brain power to locate on PSG necks.Jim Cohen wrote:Ok, Mike, I give up; where's it hiding (on PSG)? So far I only found it (on C6; didn't check E9) by including some open strings, but then the voicing isn't movable. Whatchu got?Mike Neer wrote:
My favorite voicing of a Maj7 chord is impossible on steel guitar (possible on pedal steel). It's construction is: 3 7 R 5
I would recommend any of the classic texts on harmony, although they generally use classical music as examples and for a lowly guitarist like myself, it can sometimes be a little difficult to navigate.
There are so many great books on harmony, but if you don't have a solid background in music, they can difficult to navigate. You might be better off with something like the Berklee Jazz harmony book or even mark Levine's Jazz Theory Book.
Personally, I like Schoenberg's Structural Functions of Harmony (not a very difficult book), Vincet Persichetti's Twentieth-Century Harmony (well-rounded), and Ludmila Ulehla's Contemporary Harmony (very heavy).
I don't use it all, but the info that I have learned has enabled me to see things my own way, which is really the way I operate, as I am not a very good student.
One of the things I am most interested in is simple polychords.
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
With regard to substitutions, there are books out there that give good guidance in terms of the basic theories on substitution. Barry Green is a guitarist who has written several really good books for guitar and he has addressed substitution.
The other things is to really listen to a lot of versions of the same tunes by different artists and compare with the usual vanilla lead sheets. This offers a lot of insight. If you have a mentor, though (which is the way that Jazz has always been taught), it is much easier. Years ago, I took some guitar lessons with Peter Leitch and he started showing me how tunes were played on the bandstand, starting with the intro to All The Things You Are, which was played using Bird's intro from Bird of Paradise.
Eventually, you start to hear tunes in your own way, adding your own substitutions. I've done it on all kinds of tunes, from pop tunes to standards. It's just something you develop over time--in my case, a loooong time.
The other things is to really listen to a lot of versions of the same tunes by different artists and compare with the usual vanilla lead sheets. This offers a lot of insight. If you have a mentor, though (which is the way that Jazz has always been taught), it is much easier. Years ago, I took some guitar lessons with Peter Leitch and he started showing me how tunes were played on the bandstand, starting with the intro to All The Things You Are, which was played using Bird's intro from Bird of Paradise.
Eventually, you start to hear tunes in your own way, adding your own substitutions. I've done it on all kinds of tunes, from pop tunes to standards. It's just something you develop over time--in my case, a loooong time.
When it comes to chord substitution, I'd add that taste trumps music theory by a large margin. If a particular substitution sounds good, and fits the overall mood you want to convey than it IS good - whether correct or not in theoretical terms. Some people have built whole careers on tasteful use of substitutions - like James Taylor, who often voices chords without a third which sometimes give his songs a more open, poignant and suspended sound.
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
Andy, that is really the truth.
The two most common tunes or song forms to study substitution are the 12 bar blues and I Got Rhythm. There are literally hundreds of variations on these changes.
In my arrangement of John Lennon's Imagine, I used the following simple substitution in the bridge:
the orginal chords are:
F / G / C / E7 repeat
I used (because it was what I was hearing and what i would have been inclined to use if I'd written the tune):
F / E7 / Am / C7 /
Sometimes what matters is the starting point and how you get there. As long as the melody fits the substitutions, it is wide open. We all definitely have our own way of expressing harmony.
I think step one would be an understanding of secondary dominant harmony, which is basically the concept that every diatonic chord has it's own dominant chord which resolves back to it, even if the dominant chords are not diatonic to the original chord. Confusing?
The two most common tunes or song forms to study substitution are the 12 bar blues and I Got Rhythm. There are literally hundreds of variations on these changes.
In my arrangement of John Lennon's Imagine, I used the following simple substitution in the bridge:
the orginal chords are:
F / G / C / E7 repeat
I used (because it was what I was hearing and what i would have been inclined to use if I'd written the tune):
F / E7 / Am / C7 /
Sometimes what matters is the starting point and how you get there. As long as the melody fits the substitutions, it is wide open. We all definitely have our own way of expressing harmony.
I think step one would be an understanding of secondary dominant harmony, which is basically the concept that every diatonic chord has it's own dominant chord which resolves back to it, even if the dominant chords are not diatonic to the original chord. Confusing?
- Dave Mudgett
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- Joined: 16 Jul 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
To me, chord substitution and altered harmony is one of the most complex and interesting things about music. You can get an awful lot of mileage out of simply taking the four basic triad types and using them with different (voiced or implied) roots to get subs, as Mike says, but he's right - there's a lot more.
Just googling chord substitution book pdf yielded a lot of free stuff out there, including this useful page - http://howardblackmusic.com/chordsubst.htm - which mostly gives links to some interesting tutorials, including this one by Michael Furstner - http://www.jazclass.aust.com/lessons/jt/jt19.htm - which I find the most useful basic overall explanation of how to proceed finding and using subs I've seen in a while, especially integrating the idea of chord plurality that Guy mentioned. Then when you look up chord plurality, there are a few pages that lay out a lot of the more important equivalences and their usage, e.g., like http://jazzguitarlegend.com/plurality/
The other related idea is that of chord homonyms, which leads to many other useful links. Most books I see on chord substitutions focus on usage of a fairly small number of equivalent chords and close-enough subs, which is of course important, but I'd like to see more elucidation of chord plurality and homonyms.
Other books which I found useful on this subject, mostly for guitar, are
"Chords and Progressions for Jazz & Popular Guitar" by Arnie Berle
"Guitar Fingerboard Harmony" by Ed McGuire
and of course the Ted Greene books "Chord Chemistry" but especially "Modern Chord Progressions - Jazz and Classical Voicings for Guitar". There are comparable books for piano, and perhaps they are even more comprehensive, since let's face it, piano permits the most comprehensive harmonization of any instrument I can think of.
But in the end, to really start to get at the heart of this kind of stuff, I just had to sit down with a pencil and paper and work out correspondences mathematically, and then try them on a guitar or piano. 10+ years ago, I even wrote a C program to spit out piles of equivalent or near-equivalent chords, but it got lost in the ozone somewhere, I've been meaning to rewrite it. Yeah, when I get a bunch of free time - right.
The first part, for me, is just finding the equivalences that sound right in various situations, and for me it's much, much easier on guitar or piano. Then figuring out what works on steel or slide guitar is yet another and more complex problem, for me at least.
I'm sure everyone has a different approach, there's a virtually infinite supply of permutations and combinations possible, and it isn't so simple sorting out what sounds good from what doesn't - and that is heavily situational. For me, from a practical point of view in ensemble playing, simpler is usually better because I have less chance of clashing with what someone else is doing. So in practice, I generally try to build the minimal structure on top of what Furstner calls the 'essential chord tones', 3 and 7, to get the basic chord quality I want. To be blunt, I'm much better on this on guitar than steel, or probably more accurately, I'm much worse on this on steel than I am on guitar. I think it's quite a bit harder on steel than guitar, and quite a bit harder on guitar than piano.
Just googling chord substitution book pdf yielded a lot of free stuff out there, including this useful page - http://howardblackmusic.com/chordsubst.htm - which mostly gives links to some interesting tutorials, including this one by Michael Furstner - http://www.jazclass.aust.com/lessons/jt/jt19.htm - which I find the most useful basic overall explanation of how to proceed finding and using subs I've seen in a while, especially integrating the idea of chord plurality that Guy mentioned. Then when you look up chord plurality, there are a few pages that lay out a lot of the more important equivalences and their usage, e.g., like http://jazzguitarlegend.com/plurality/
The other related idea is that of chord homonyms, which leads to many other useful links. Most books I see on chord substitutions focus on usage of a fairly small number of equivalent chords and close-enough subs, which is of course important, but I'd like to see more elucidation of chord plurality and homonyms.
Other books which I found useful on this subject, mostly for guitar, are
"Chords and Progressions for Jazz & Popular Guitar" by Arnie Berle
"Guitar Fingerboard Harmony" by Ed McGuire
and of course the Ted Greene books "Chord Chemistry" but especially "Modern Chord Progressions - Jazz and Classical Voicings for Guitar". There are comparable books for piano, and perhaps they are even more comprehensive, since let's face it, piano permits the most comprehensive harmonization of any instrument I can think of.
But in the end, to really start to get at the heart of this kind of stuff, I just had to sit down with a pencil and paper and work out correspondences mathematically, and then try them on a guitar or piano. 10+ years ago, I even wrote a C program to spit out piles of equivalent or near-equivalent chords, but it got lost in the ozone somewhere, I've been meaning to rewrite it. Yeah, when I get a bunch of free time - right.
The first part, for me, is just finding the equivalences that sound right in various situations, and for me it's much, much easier on guitar or piano. Then figuring out what works on steel or slide guitar is yet another and more complex problem, for me at least.
I'm sure everyone has a different approach, there's a virtually infinite supply of permutations and combinations possible, and it isn't so simple sorting out what sounds good from what doesn't - and that is heavily situational. For me, from a practical point of view in ensemble playing, simpler is usually better because I have less chance of clashing with what someone else is doing. So in practice, I generally try to build the minimal structure on top of what Furstner calls the 'essential chord tones', 3 and 7, to get the basic chord quality I want. To be blunt, I'm much better on this on guitar than steel, or probably more accurately, I'm much worse on this on steel than I am on guitar. I think it's quite a bit harder on steel than guitar, and quite a bit harder on guitar than piano.
- Stefan Robertson
- Posts: 1846
- Joined: 24 Nov 2013 9:34 am
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
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Ok so Lots of reading ahead. Long days ahead.
I will definitely be posting more questions once I do some reading and self study.
I will definitely be posting more questions once I do some reading and self study.
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
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- Stefan Robertson
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- Joined: 24 Nov 2013 9:34 am
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
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Is the G usually played ie the 5th. I thought it's usually omitted in Jazz as it muddies the chord when playing with the band.
If so I have the E,B, C inversion (3rd, 7th, Root) on my 7th fret strings 6, 3, 2. In my theory Ionian tuning. Which I definitely will try this weekend when I have some more time.
If so I have the E,B, C inversion (3rd, 7th, Root) on my 7th fret strings 6, 3, 2. In my theory Ionian tuning. Which I definitely will try this weekend when I have some more time.
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
- Stefan Robertson
- Posts: 1846
- Joined: 24 Nov 2013 9:34 am
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
- Contact:
Found this awesome post about what notes can be omitted when playing
http://music.stackexchange.com/question ... azz-chords
http://music.stackexchange.com/question ... azz-chords
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"