Tempered Tuning Armageddon.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 24 May 2004 9:18 am

Great post, David. Yours, Paul's and Chas' are right with what I feel. I have spent the last 30+ years in the studio on both sides of the glass, and have never been able to make the ET remotely work for me. I am currently mixing a record that both Paul and Sonny played on--both guys who tune by ear with JI, and their performances are awesomely in tune. JI works just fine for me, both in the studio or on the bandstand...

Brian Davis · Post by **Brian Davis** » 24 May 2004 9:25 am

Why is a Hammond inherently out of tune?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 May 2004 9:42 am

Buddy, you tear me up...

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 May 2004 10:14 am

Unh, Buddy, I'd go with your ears any day. Other than that, I think we have to go with whoever's ears get paid the most, or something like that.

Brian, b0b means that a Hammond is inherently out of tune to just intonation (JI), the tuning that the human ear wants to hear (mainly characterized by what we are calling flatted thirds). The equal tempered scale (ET) is something piano tuners came up with centuries ago. Fretless stringed instruments and horns (which set the pitch with the lips) had not had to deal with the problem the flatted third causes when changing keys. They simply flat the third by ear whenever the need arises, in any chord or any key. Piano tuners found their fixed-pitch instrument could only play in-tune chords in one key. By adjusting all the notes in an octave to evenly spaced intervals, they could play all keys acceptably, although they were all slightly out of tune, especially for the third of any chord.

The pedal steel is fretless, and so is like orchestral strings and horns. But it also has many strings with fixed intervals, like a harp or piano. So we have to mix our tuning method up a bit. We can tune some of the intervals we use the most to JI. But this will cause problems with some other string and pedal/knee combinations. The F lever and A pedal combination is one of these problems. So some combination of JI and ET, but not straight ET everywhere, is what most steelers seem to use. Tunable compensators can help. These are slight pulls or lowers on some of the non-pedaled strings of a particular chord.

The fact that we can use sweet JI (or very close to it) for many of our most used chords is a great advantage for pedal steel, and I think one reason lots of people love the sound of it. To me, it would seem a shame to give that up by blindly tuning everything straight up.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 May 2004 10:43 am

I think it's a mistake to say that we are tuning our thirds flat. The true major third defined by the laws of physics is created by multiplying the root frequency by 5/4. The major thirds on tempered instruments like the Hammond organ are tuned sharp of the true major third.

So, which ears do we tune to? The ears that can’t distinguish a sharp third in a track or those that can?

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John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 24 May 2004 10:56 am

The ears you gotta tune to are your own--how you get to that point is whatever works for you. If you keep getting called back for work, it must be right

...

One interesting thing that Paul touched on earlier is the ever narrowing pitch center in modern records, especially in vocals. I tune a lotta vocals these days, but I do it in the graphic/manual method using my ears. I notice a lot of engineer/producers that just call up AutoTune and let it go, which I believe is ET. Makes for some rubs in my book. There are JI scales built into AutoTune that seem to work better for me, but like I said, I tune with my ears unless under major budget/time constraints. The more narrow pitch center separates the men from the boys in the fretless instrument chairs, IMo...

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 24 May 2004 11:06 am

Bill,
I’m with you on the money ears. There are enough Webb Pierce records around to attest to that.
I’ve tuned both ways an equal amount of years and the albums I’ve recorded over twenty years ago speak for the difference. My primary reason for tuning ET is to get everything out of the guitar that it’s capable of delivering. To me that’s what you should expect out of any musical instrument. Tuning ET has allowed me to use pedals and pedal combinations never before possible when I had to compromise. Besides, I figure if somebody can get away with tuning 9 cents flat to every other instrument, then I’m home free.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 May 2004 11:32 am

Right, Buddy, the more complicated you make your pedal steel, with more possible combinations of strings, pedals and knees, the more like a piano it becomes, with the same problems and solutions. For complete versatility with every conceivable change, you may have to go almost completely with ET, unless you are going to have 10 compensators on every pedal or knee. Pure JI can only work for simpler tunings and simpler songs, and then only for E9 maybe. The C6 neck has more strings and changes outside of straight major chords, and so has more need to move closer to ET. I tune my uni first to JI in the E9 mode. Then I go to the B6 mode and make some adjustments that move me a little closer to ET for some intervals. But I don't feel the need to go clompletely ET, because the B6 stuff can take a little dissonance better than the E9 stuff. I'm somewhere in between, but I'm closer to JI for E9, and closer to ET for B6.

b0b is right that "flatted thirds" is just a figure of speech that can be misleading. There is not really anything flat to the ear about JI, but ET really is sharp to the ear.

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 24 May 2004 12:05 pm

My apologies for not explaining up front Bill, but I do tune everything ET. Compensation is what I had to deal with tuning the old way but now it’s a thing of the past. I may go a cent or so flat in some cases but strictly to handle temp changes under certain conditions.
Also when I hear a JI steel third in a ET track, flat is the only word I can come up with.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 May 2004 12:46 pm

Lest there be any doubt

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 May 2004 1:10 pm

Yes, compared to ET, a JI third sounds flat. Compared to JI, an ET third sounds sharp. We're all right.

Let's look at it this way. For complete versatility, if you go ET all the way, you can't sound worse than an electric keyboard, which everyone accepts just fine. On the other hand, where you can get away with something closer to JI, you will sound more like strings, horns and vocalists, also which everyone accepts just fine. So with pedal steel, you're not really stuck with either one all the time, the way some other instruments are. You're more free to split the difference and find your own way. Or maybe that's a curse. Keyboard players don't seem to worry about this stuff. It's all ET for them and that's the end of it. Strings and horns also don't worry about it. They play it all to the ear, and that's the end of it. We have options, so we have to think about it.

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 24 May 2004 1:14 pm

I certainly find that easy enough to swallow. I guess I'll have to find me a good keyboard player and settle down.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 24 May 2004 1:16 pm

Hey guys, I'm lost. What does JI and ET stand for.--Henry

Cory Jensen · Post by **Cory Jensen** » 24 May 2004 1:26 pm

JI = Just Intonation
ET = Equal Temperament

I know that much, the rest is over my head.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 May 2004 1:59 pm

JI=Just Intonation. Or tuning the beats out between any two notes. Or "harmonically pure". Or based on a ratio of numbers referencing any two frequencies when they are a harmonic multiple of one another such as, 440/880, 440/550 or 440/220 or 440/660 etc..

ET=Equal temperament. Or tuning all notes in 12 equal steps in a fixed logarythmic separation based when a number (frequency) doubles (or halves) in 12 steps. Or any note's frequency or distance on a fret board muliplied (or divided by) the 12th root of the digit 2.

An example is the 12th fret on any steel guitar. It took 12 steps to get there but it is exactly half way to the bridge. Or put another way, If your scale is exactly 24 and 1/4", the 12th fret will be exactly 12 and 1/8" from either end.

Two divergent schools of thoughts on how to tune a musical instrument with crossovers schools (views) between the two the world over. Those that are most divergent in viewpoint rarely if ever budge. Those that use some of each often divulge and given enough time, actually tend to often subtly voice their opponent's viewpoint as witnessed in this and other threads on the subject.

But then that is life isn't it?

carl

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 May 2004 5:00 pm

As I just had my birthday, I consider Mr Emmons' among others' comments to be a fine present.

Either I am not crazy after all, or I have some Really Good Company..

I must note that "strings" such as fiddles are not strictly ear instruments, any more than a PSG. Good fiddlers that I have played with, like Donny Herron, or locally, James Mason, constantly play with and to their open strings for reference to true pitch. Ones I have played with that played "strictly by ear" often wandered around following out of tune vocals.

I'm going to be saving this string to my HDD, that's for sure.

Thanks all, and especially Mr. Emmons for putting some of the "tuning things" into perspective for me.

It was the best birthday present for the guy that has "everything".

I can die now.

( just kidding...)

EJL

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 May 2004 7:10 pm

Well, happy birthday, Eric! Now we never said you weren't crazy. But if you are, it ain't got nothin' to do with the fact that you tune ET.

You're right about fiddles. Once they tune their A string to 440, then tune their others in fifths to that, they are pegged to ET A=440 throughout their range. Provided they can play in tune, they will then play more or less to ET unless their ear hears a third or something that sounds like it needs something different. They're not thinking JI or ET, but just playing by ear whatever sounds right according to everything else that is going on. Same with horns. They tune to a single note that is given them. In an orchestra that will be A=440, but brass bands and wind orchestras sometimes tune to concert Bb straight up. Now their horn is pegged to ET throughout its range. They will only vary from ET where it sounds right.

When good musicians play live together the variable pitched players will play by ear to whatever sounds right at the moment. If they are playing with an ET piano or whatever, they will more or less match it and there will not be a huge clash. The big problem comes when people record tracks at different times without being able to hear each other live.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 24 May 2004 8:42 pm

David,

Well said

This tuning JI or ET debate reminds me of the "is the glass half full or half empty" scenario. How best to tune thirds largely depends on what temperment pleases our ears. Both ET and JI coexist on modern records without any problems.

Playing in tune, is a different animal...Paul

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 May 2004 9:27 pm

As this string appearantly ends without my hide on the wall, I'm still in awe..

I've also noted that some notes, runs, slides into and out of have absolutely no relation to strict fretting at all. Sometimes making a three phrase pattern over two frets. (I still do that in "The Fireman" just for grins, and nobody seems to know.)

I remember my teacher with his inscrutable way of cutting through things told me that if it doesn't sound right to you ( meaning me I guess) when you REALLY listen to it, then you have more work to do on it. I remember working for weeks on the simplest of things, as my teacher used to, ( and probably still does) and I've heard stories of others including the other "Big Guys" doing too.

Like I said, this thread has been a good present.

Thanks Mr E, Mr F, Mr's CD, D, D BH, b0b, et al.

And above all my thanks to Mr Charleton for the hours of torture he endured for a few measley dollars on my account...

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 May 2004 at 10:32 PM.]

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 25 May 2004 4:19 am

"Compared to ET, a JI third sounds flat." Why? Because it is.

"Compared to JI, an ET third sounds sharp." It only sounds that way because we're so used to hearing the blend of a JI steel in our bedrooms.

If you spend all your time playing with tracks or solo at home, stay with JI. You'll sound more in tune, at least with yourself.

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My best,
Ernie

www.buddyemmons.com[This message was edited by Ernie Renn on 25 May 2004 at 05:20 AM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 25 May 2004 5:07 am

Ernie,

The answer to both your comparisons is exactly the same, because there is no such thing as an ET rhythm track, unless you have tracks that are acoustic piano only.

Every fretless instrument uses JI to adjust to the center of the bands pitch. The band or orchestra's pitch is created when several instruments, (including the drums) perform together. Several instruments played at once creates harmonic overtones to emerge in those recorded tracks that are completely unrelated to the acoustic piano's ET. The studio term we use today for this is "Gremlins" Those pesky little gremlins or cents, depending on the key of a particular song, can vary far beyond the scope of what has been discussed here as sharp or flat thirds in this thread, BEFORE the steel player ever hits a note.

Its impossible for guitarists to perfectly match ET note for note with the piano. They also adjust per track when recording. The fretted instruments, Bass, Guitar, Mandolins, etc. also while playing their instruments clamp down certain strings a little harder than the rest, shifting the bands pitch farther from strict ET. Horns play to their sections pitch and so do string players. Accordian players, well there's no hope there

The real truth about ET and JI is that they perfectly coexist together in recorded music created by multiples of instruments.

If I understood correctly, Buddy's reason for tuning ET, is to utilize all the various string groups within the tuning, pedals up and down with the F#. His point seems to be the best reason to consider ET.

Even then, JI players can compensate their F#s by giving them a nudge in the pedals down positions and then its back to a tie ballgame.

Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 25 May 2004 at 06:13 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 25 May 2004 at 06:15 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 May 2004 5:56 am

Okay, Eric, now you got PF and BE discussing this for you. You happy now? My two cents ain't worth much here. But PF just brought up something I have wondered about - that's the summation of all the instruments playing together. I've always suspected that the big sound of all the instruments in a group might resonate strong enough to cause slightly out of tune instruments to resonate to the summation pitch. In other words, to some extent the different instruments influence each other and resonate together on a summation pitch that might be a little different than their individual pitches. On the other hand, maybe it's just our ears that create the summation pitch from the blend. I wonder if sound engineers have ever checked this out. You'd have to put individual tuners on each instrument, and see if the individual pitches change when they all play together.

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 25 May 2004 6:10 am

Years ago I put a Harmonic Tune-Up course out that illustrated the difference in the blend of two notes versus three. My suggestion for getting the third closer to the other instruments was to tune the G# where it sounded sharp to the E but disappeared when the B note was added. It worked and worked well.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 25 May 2004 6:48 am

Buddy,
Just curious, Did you ever scope it to the tuner? and if so, Where did your G# read using that method? Everyone seems to compromise, tuning thirds a tad sharp, as brother Stu said earlier. Players seem to only differ as to how far sharp they can comfortably go.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 25 May 2004 7:38 am

Mr. Emmons, how do you tune your non-pedal steels ...

JI, ET or the above mentioned compromise (3rd a tad sharp, disappearing with an added 5th).

Wow, I can't believe I'm "talking" to Buddy Emmons

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