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Topic: Need some warmth |
Mack Quinney
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2015 8:30 pm |
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Need some suggestions.
I'm playing a MSA Millennium with the MSA pickups into a black box, telonics pedal to digitech 1101, direct to PA.
Need some suggestions on the digitech 1101 settings to get a warm sound.
Thanks in advanced.
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford. |
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Josh Yenne
From:
Sonoma California
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Posted 18 Jun 2015 10:36 pm
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| Remove some buffers. Remove some ones and zeros. Add some tubes. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2015 7:09 am
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The Black Box IS "tubes". That's all it is. So that's a very good step... 
But when it comes to a digital preamp and going direct, you may want to get into the EQ section of the Digitech and do a heavy EQ dump of the high frequencies above 5kHz. Dropping those highs away will help make the steel tone more "normal" thru a full-range PA/direct path.
Whenever we go direct to PA, we have that glaring issue of the full range, the tweeters. Generally, steelers use guitar speakers which don't have horns or tweeters. So in that case the unwanted highs naturally disappear. But going DI/full-range thru a PA or monitor, we need to sometimes use EQ to dump away those highs so they don't come screaming thru the tweeters/horns. Dumping above 5kHz seems to be a good place to do it as it preserves the wanted treble but tames down the unwanted glassy highs that we all strive so hard to avoid.
I just took a closer look at the 1101 preamp. That thing will do speaker cabinet emulation. I'd explore that area because it will automatically do what I'm describing about dumping the unwanted highs. See if there's a speaker emulation in there that sounds acceptable. Pedal steel thru digital preamping can be a struggle, but you may find it in there if you poke around.
B |
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Mack Quinney
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2015 7:46 am
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Thanks Brad.
I messed around with it this morning and actual did the things you described. (Dropped the highs from the EQ and change the cabinet emulation to a 4X12 setting and backed off the reverb saturation.) It's better. Not best but better.
When I get back to the house, I'll check to see which amp simulation it is. The Bassman or Twin might be the ticket.
If I push the vari-Z on the black box do you think it will warm up some more? I have it set at 50% or 12 noon setting currently.
Thanks again for jumping in.
Mack
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford. |
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Josh Yenne
From:
Sonoma California
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Posted 19 Jun 2015 8:08 am
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| Oh good I didn't know that Brad. I've never had the pleasure of using one. But if you are making it I'm sure it's excellent! |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2015 8:11 am
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Just keep following the path Brad mentions. If you have an EQ in your patch, or an EQ before the reverb part of your patch, dump some highs there, especially if the verb is mixed in parallel with the guitar signal. It may be a simple as tweaking the highs and high mids at the house console, although that's often out of your hands. For some reason quite a few FOH guys seem to think steel is supposed to be thin and shrill. I just try to give them a warm signal to begin with. Best of luck!
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com
Last edited by Mark van Allen on 20 Jun 2015 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2015 11:59 am
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When it comes to digital amp modeling for pedal steel, I have had the best luck with the Fender Bassman models, but sometimes that Twin is good too.
EQ-wise, the trick is to have plenty of energy up to 5kHz, but above that it should drop off steeply so that at 10kHz and higher it's virtually gone. Going direct into full-range speakers makes it take a LOT of EQ and fiddling to tame that stuff.
Sometimes the right all-tube circuit will sound just fine with those highs still intact, but with digital, those highs don't tend to be very steel-friendly.
The Vari-Z knob on the Black Box is a tone control that mostly addresses the middle-treble where the pickups are the most peaky, 2kHz to 4kHz typically. It doesn't really address these glassy high-highs you're trying to dump. That would take the preamp to control.
B |
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Mack Quinney
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2015 4:30 am
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Brad,
Mark.
Thank you both for your advice.
I went back last night and set the amp sim to Twin, and cut some of the reverb saturation. I also upped the gain on the pre-amp to get my volumn, and dropped the gain on the board. EQ is about right now and I have a signal I can live with.
Thank you for your help.
Mack
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2015 8:55 am
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Cool! One of the struggles for me with my live sound has been to find and settle on a rig where the EQ fiddling I do is just to tweeze my signal emotionally ( to make me feel better about playing and my presentation) rather than constantly trying to EQ the rig to the differences in acoustics… i.e.; I hate getting caught up in tweaking my sound for every different stage environment. I found the Stereo steel rig sounded very similar in various rooms, as did a rig based on a sarno preamp into a Furlong powered cab- perhaps the closed-back cabs have a hand in that. I'm into an entirely new rig right now based around a Milkman amp, and hoping I can get a similar sound in each room as I dial it in. Pursuit of tone is… a pursuit…
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Mitch Adelman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2015 9:21 am
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| Perhaps turn the impedance control down a bit on the telonics pedal. I found the telonics and black box to work well together but a very clear glassy tone. I do get a much 'warmer' tone with the black box and a pot pedal and I decided to stick with that combo at least with my setup. I got an old black box without the impedance knob. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 20 Jun 2015 9:29 am
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Worth mentioning (maybe).....I used a PODxt a lot for my live rig and for some recording. Used the Twin Reverb sim, mostly. The instructions point out that the Drive control (gain) should be regarded as the channel volume knob on a blackface twin. So running it realistically high gives you some of the saturation (warmth) that you get from driving a twin into its sweet spot.
Looks like you have discovered that. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2015 2:49 pm
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For inspiration, I'd look at the frequency response curve of an EPS15C. Looks like it's about 12dB/octave @ 2Khz.
Linear makes a 4th order Butterworth filter (LTC 1563 ) in a 16 bin SSOP - might be a product in that for use with the direct outs on steel amps. Could have a trimpot to set the knee frequency. It is an annoying 3.3V part.
If they offered it in 16 pin DIP I'd consider breadboarding one. |
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Mack Quinney
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2015 3:31 pm
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To those who responded to this thread, thank you.
I played my gig today and had a good tone thanks to the responses on this thread. Nice warmth in my sound. I had to add a little mid range when I got there, but other than that it was just volumn tweeks.
I do play better when I like my tone.
Thank you all.
Mack
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford. |
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