Keyless vs Keyed

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 5 Jun 2015 4:23 pm

Chris,
When I saw simple beauty!my first Kline, I was impressed by it's simple beauty. Form follows function. I studied architecture, and the Kline was so impressive.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 5 Jun 2015 5:12 pm

any lapsteel with more than 6 strings is a nightmare to me.
that is trippy, though.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 6 Jun 2015 8:16 pm

A keyless steel guitar is a work of art, both in playing, and in gazing. Paul Redmond creations.

A keyless Zumm

A keyless BMI remake

I was keyless, when keyless wasn't cool......

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 6 Jun 2015 8:54 pm

i don't really dislike them. i always hoped a little kline would fall into my lap someday.

Chris Templeton · Post by **Chris Templeton** » 7 Jun 2015 5:33 am

When Buddy was playing a Sierra, he said he switched back to a keyed guitar because of the look. For me, changing strings on a keyless is more cumbersome than a keyed guitar.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 7 Jun 2015 7:12 am

Chris Templeton wrote:For me, changing strings on a keyless is more cumbersome than a keyed guitar.

I've had Sierra and Williams keyless. Both were much easier to change strings on than any tuning keys I've used. Maybe I don't have the technique right for threading and winding tuning keys. To me, they're a pain in the ass.

Chris Templeton · Post by **Chris Templeton** » 7 Jun 2015 8:50 am

Ned Steinberger's use of double balled strings is a great design. Just put each end of the string in its channel and tighten to pitch.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 7 Jun 2015 11:57 am

Never owned a keyless but built a bunch of them while working at Sierra. Would not be a deal breaker for me. Both work equally well.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 10 Jun 2015 1:30 pm

I have never heard a keyless guitar that I thought sounded anywhere near as good as a keyhead guitar.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 10 Jun 2015 1:48 pm

"I have never heard a keyless guitar that I thought sounded anywhere near as good as a keyhead guitar.
_________________"

Never heard a Kline?

Jack Wilson · Post by **Jack Wilson** » 10 Jun 2015 3:40 pm

Check out Bob Tuttle's youtube rose colored glasses.
Even Big E said the best sounding C6th was his keyless Sierra. I saw Jack Musgrave play a show where he played his push pull Emmons the first set and then played his GFI keyless the 2nd set. Another steel player and I both agreed the keyless sounded the best at that venue.

GaryL · Post by **GaryL** » 12 Jun 2015 2:21 pm

John,

That was priceless!

Gary in Medina

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 12 Jun 2015 6:17 pm

John Billings wrote:"I have never heard a keyless guitar that I thought sounded anywhere near as good as a keyhead guitar.
_________________"

Never heard a Kline?

Actually, my best musician friend & steeler in my first country band in NYC had a Kline D-10, and just did not like the sound. Also heard Jeff Newman play one at the Watertown steel thing once, & I thought it just sounded dead,dull, & lifeless. I guess it's all what tone you like. My favorite is push-pull,I just like the resonance of an aluminum neck, like LeGrande, Mullen,Zum,Franklin,JCH,etc.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 12 Jun 2015 9:43 pm

Rich Upright wrote:My favorite is push-pull,I just like the resonance of an aluminum neck, like LeGrande, Mullen,Zum,Franklin,JCH,etc.

Have you ever heard a keyless guitar with an aluminum neck?

Sierra keyless guitars had aluminum bodies and wood necks.

How's that for a switch?

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 12 Jun 2015 11:01 pm

My band opened for Loretta at Ponderosa Park. I walked into the backstage room, and there was my hero. Papa John. I freaked, but he put me at ease within 30 seconds. Wonderful man! As I unpacked and set up My Kline Uni, he became very interested. He ordered one a couple weeks later. I don't know how much he used it, but he did have one.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 13 Jun 2015 10:17 am

I dunno, Bob is a fine player but his guitar sure doesn't sound like much to me compared to my '71 Emmons. But... YMMV and everyone should own and play what they like.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 13 Jun 2015 12:33 pm

I've taken a couple of serious stabs at trying to get comfortable with keyless guitars of several brands. It may be me, but I just couldn't get in the comfort zone of getting 3rd strings up to pitch without breakage, deal breaker for me onstage or in the studio.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 13 Jun 2015 8:14 pm

"3rd strings up to pitch without breakage,"

Never, ever, had that problem with my Kline. With my '72 Shobud? Yes!

GaryL · Post by **GaryL** » 14 Jun 2015 6:15 am

Of all the steels that I've owned, my GFI keyless has had far fewer broken strings. I usually change strings because they lose tone, and/or corrode, not because they are broken. Less string travel,less string breakage.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 14 Jun 2015 10:36 am

b0b, I've found, that most of the guys who try to find excuses for owning and playing a keyed steel guitar, have never played a keyless. This thread hasn't changed much since it was first posted. It's not a matter of taste for me, or appearance. It's a matter of what works better, is cleaner, and sounds better. A keyless is compact.

I can't for the life of me, see how someone could compare the playability of an old Emmons Push~Pull, to a modern steel guitar. But they try. Respectfully, I don't think some could actually tell the difference in sound between one steel or another. But it does prove my point. All of my keyless steels have aluminum necks. What I find entertaining with some of these post, is the lack of knowledge. So many, know so little about keyless steel guitars. Keyless steel guitars have been around longer then some that make comments about them. I won't go back to a keyed steel guitar. Yes I use to play keyed steel guitars, I can't stand those top & side heavy, awkward looking things.

b0b, it's not that some don't like the looks of a keyless, I'm actually starting to think, by reading some of these post. That a few are actually intimidated by the looks of a keyless. And the phrase "I'm too old to change" comes to mind here. So keep winding strings, cranking tuning keys, spilling the beer reaching for the wire cutters, messing with pedal tuning sleeves, breaking 3rd strings and blaming the brand of string you're using, telling the singer you're almost there, start without me, and cussing....it's Hilarious $:\$ JMHO

(Posted with the utmost respect of all steel guitarist, no matter what type of steel guitar they play)

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 14 Jun 2015 10:48 am

George, I've listened to enough keyless guitars live and on the web to know thy are not for me. I'll stick with my old push-pull thank you. Good luck with your playing and your guitars but don't infer I'm an idiot because I don't care for keyless guitars. Thanks

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 14 Jun 2015 10:51 am

I knew it....

(Posted with the utmost respect of all steel guitarist, no matter what type of steel guitar they play)

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 14 Jun 2015 10:57 am

My observation of keyless is simply that I have never heard a keyless that I thought sounded good. Remember being at a steeljam in Watertown, Tenn. a number of years back. Remember some of the players...Buddy, Jimmy Crawford, Johnny Cox,Jeff Newman, I think Donna Hammet. Remember seeing Emmons;JCH,Zums,Franklin & they all sounded great. Jeff Newman came on to play & had a Kline, & I remember it sounding dull & lifeless as compared to the other guitars. My first steel player back in the day had a D-10 Kline, & I remember it sounding dull; no resonance. It's just a matter of personal taste. Yes; my '66 Emmons PP played clunky, but the tone was to die for. There is a reason why players pay a fortune for an old push-pull. They are like old Harleys--a mechanical, clunky nightmare, but nothing sounds better. I saw one of my top 5 favorite players in the WORLD a few months ago & thought if he were playing a keyed guitar instead of a Sierra, it woulda been phenominal. I have played Kline, Sierra & 1 other; the brand escapes me ( I think GFI), & didn't like the sound of any of them. But then again, it's all a matter of personal taste. maybe it's my playing; I have never been able to get a good sound out of a Sho-Bud, either, but I've heard Lloyd & Dickey Overbey sound better on them than a lot of players on PPs. Go figure. I will always stick with keyhead, aluminum neck guitars, because, with the exception of MSA (which to me sounds as good as a PP) or Dekley, they're the only steels I feel I sound good on.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 14 Jun 2015 11:08 am

George Redmon wrote:And the phrase "I'm too old to change" comes to mind here. So keep winding strings, cranking tuning keys, spilling the beer reaching for the wire cutters, messing with pedal tuning sleeves, breaking 3rd strings and blaming the brand of string you're using, telling the singer you're almost there, start without me, and cussing....it's Hilarious :\ JMHO

(Posted with the utmost respect of all steel guitarist, no matter what type of steel guitar they play)

I have a GFI keyless, and a couple of keyed steels.
Turning the keyless tuning knobs by hand may take fewer turns, but I don't find it any quicker than cranking tuning keys with a peg winder. And there's no need for additional time to tighten down a screw on a keyed guitar. I don't think I'm any less likely (or more likely) to spill beer reaching for the screwdriver than reaching for the wire cutters. I take it you must be a string wiggler, i.e. wiggle the string to break it off instead of cutting it? I use wire cutters for my GFI keyless, so that's two tool reaches.

(Perhaps these points are specific to the GFI system.)

Posted with reciprocal respect.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 14 Jun 2015 11:15 am

Changing the subject slightly, I wonder whether we're taking it for granted that the reduced length of a keyless guitar is an automatic benefit.

By losing the space under the keyhead we're effectively shunting all the pedals at least one position to the right, and if you are used to a wide stance a keyless might seem cramped, especially to Emmons players.

I am pro-keyless myself for all the usual reasons, but I can see a downside if it isn't actually comfortable to play.

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