Mooney Setup

Joe Yednasty · Post by **Joe Yednasty** » 29 Jun 2004 1:25 pm

I am somewhat new to the steel guitar and am not as familiar with the technical terms as I would like to be, but I was just wondering what extra pedal or knee lever gives him the signature sound that standard setups can't imitate.

James Zurek · Post by **James Zurek** » 29 Jun 2004 1:37 pm

I can not go into the specifics but I will say it has been addressed quite a bit on the forum. Do a search for Mooney and you will find quite a bit of info.

That being said, much of it deals with his 1KL set up as per Winnie's book. My question is what was his set up with his old Fender guitars? Same but without the knee lever?

James

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Some kind of Sho-Bud Frankenstein guitar
Standel 50L12
Standel S80

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 29 Jun 2004 5:25 pm

Ralph's original and present tuning (called copedent) has been posted on this forum several times. But I can't find it. Hopefully someone will come in and post it for you again.

Mooney plays like NO other. He is unique indeed.

carl

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 30 Jun 2004 4:33 am

Joe, I DO know what Ralphs original setup was. I set up my first pedal steel exactly the same as his.
You do not need to change from a standard E9 setup to hit his licks.
I now use a Jimmy Day pedal setup which works a little better for me than the original Mooney setup(Ralphs original setup only used 8 strings).
The bottom line is: ALL THE MOONEY LICKS CAN BE PLAYED WITH EASE ON A STANDARD E9 TUNING.
Although Ralph used 4 pedals,you can do it with 3. You do not need any knee levers .
I haven't asked Ralph how he is tuning his GFI but I am sure that "THE MOON" hasn't changed it much from the old days.
If it is important to know his original setup, I can spell it out for you. Probably have to make a chart and email it.
Joe I am always willing to help younger players. After all, Ralph helped me get started with my first pedal setup. Do not hesitate to ask any question for any reason.
Your friend... John .

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 30 Jun 2004 5:16 am

Hey John,
You do need to change a little from the standard E9th set up to do his stuff. Most notably is the standard "C" pedal. Ralph moves the E string to F# without the B to C# going with it. You hear it a lot on his recordings. Some players put that change on a knee lever or I've seen it on a pedal next to the volume pedal. Also, Ralph's G# to A changes aren't on the same pedal as ours. He has them split on pedals on either side of his B to C# change. Also he has a pedal which lowers the high G# to G. His playing genius in attributed (In my opinion) to the simplicity of his copedant. A lot of the stuff he plays just ain't on there but he finds it. Ralph likes to drone on those open strings and is a master of that cajun sounding stuff. He's the first one who turned me on to wanting to be a steeler back in the 50's and he'll always be my favorite.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 30 Jun 2004 6:44 am

PLEASE NOTE A CORRECTION TO THE COPEDANT!
In the first post I failed to show the 3rd string raise to F#. Sorry for this terrible ommission. Pedal 3 pulls 2 strings.

You are correct about raising the E to F# with pedal #4. You heard him use that pedal on "Rainy Day Woman" (Waylon Jennings).
I can play that on a standard E9. The E and B are raised with the same pedal on a standard setup but you only pick the E and G# while raising the E.

Here goes. I will attempt to put Mooneys original 8 string setup here.
<pre>OPEN PEDALS

1 2 3 4
1.G# +A
2.E +F#
3.B +C# +C#
4.G# +A +A
5.F#
6.E
7.D
8.B
</pre> To the best of my senior memory, this is the tuning Moon used in the early sixties.
The guitar was a Fender 1000. The amp was a Fender Pro (separate head & 15"speaker cab).
... JD ...[This message was edited by b0b on 30 June 2004 at 05:31 PM.][This message was edited by John Daugherty on 28 January 2005 at 05:04 AM.][This message was edited by John Daugherty on 28 January 2005 at 05:10 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 30 Jun 2004 6:51 am

The reason Ralph has the E to F# raise on his 4th pedal is to get a "movement" that is almost impossible with the standard E9th set up.

That is, when he walks up the strings beginning with the 8th string he ends up with an A and C# notes on string 6 and 5 respectfully (pedals down). Then he wants to rapid fire RAISE his 4th sting to an F#. NOT simply reach up and pick an F# like on our 1st string.

This requires that he have a separate pedal raising the E to F#. He does a similar movement that requires the two G# to A pulls NOT be on the same pedal.

Having said that I have seen some Mooney protege's almost duplicate it. But it requires some difficult manuevering and precise blocking; plus it sometimes requires that a person use their right foot tickling the C pedal while A and B are both down.

When Buddy Emmons did it long ago, that is what he did. He would come off his volume pedal, and with A and B down, go all the way to pedal 3 and tap the C pedal to get one of those classic Mooney licks.

If you listen carefully to all those classics when Ralph was putting Buck Owens on the charts, and you wish to get "THAT" sound, IMO, you are going to need an original Fender PSG, a Fender tube amp and his tuning. Which means both feet often!

I simply do not believe "that" sound and those awesome stocatto regular guitar licks can be achieved with the standard E9th tuning. Yes, some can come close, but "ya really had to be there", and ya gotta tune like he does if ya wanna duplicate it.

Or that is my take on it. May Jesus richly bless Ralph for his unprecedented contribution to the world of true country music. And may he bring all of you joy always,

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 30 June 2004 at 07:57 AM.]

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 30 Jun 2004 6:56 am

Well, I see that the text formatting was changed when my reply was posted. I had it looking right but it changed when it posted.
I guess you have to use html code.
try this..

Pedal 1 raises 4th string G# to A.
Pedal 2 raises 3rd string B to C# and 4th string G# to A.
Pedal 3 raises 1st string G# to A
Pedal 4 raises 2nd string E to F#.

Remember, this is an 8 string E9 tuning starting with a G# on first string .

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 30 Jun 2004 7:06 am

John,

When you post a tuning on this thread, the forum software will "truncate" all multiple spaces down to one space.

You can tell it NOT to do this, IF you simply add "[ tab ]" before the setup; and add "[ /tab ]" at the end of the setup.

NOTE: Don't use the quotation marks and spaces around the word tab.

Try it

<pre>

1 2 3 4

G# A
E F#
B C#
G# A A
F#
D
B
E
</pre>

John, are you sure he pulled both the 3rd and 4th strings on pedal 2?

carl

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 30 Jun 2004 7:11 am

Carl, you can add one more comment on duplicating Mooney..... "YOU CAN'T. His right hand technique is a signature.
I posted here in the past that I have played Moons guitar on a job. I sounded like me. Ralph would then sit down at the same equipment and sound like Ralph.
I was close, but could not "sign his signature".

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 30 Jun 2004 7:28 am

Yes Carl. He pulled the 3rd and 4th strings on pedal 2. Another steeler who hung around me back then (Francis "Frank" Arnett) got his pedal setup from me but changed it to only raised one string per pedal.
Frank called me back around 1985 and during the conversation, mentioned that he thought he had Moon convinced to do the same.
Yes I know for sure that he had the old Bud Isaac change on pedal #2.
From what Frank said, it sounds like he may have changed it but it would have been in the mid 1980s.
I can call and ask Ralph but I never liked to pester people with stuff like that.

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 30 Jun 2004 8:28 am

Are we 100% sure Mooney used the E9 tuning? How the heck did he get those high string pulls on a 1000 without breaking strings, especially with his vigorous pedal work? Is it possible he used D9?

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 30 Jun 2004 8:49 am

100% sure. I worked with him, recorded with him, lived near him,went to his home with him,played his guitar, tuned my guitar exactly as his. YES 100% SURE.
..John..

Joe Yednasty · Post by **Joe Yednasty** » 30 Jun 2004 12:40 pm

As a new member, I just want to thank everyone for their inside advice/help. Ralph Mooney is basically the person who's sound got be hooked on the steel guitar.

Fred Jack · Post by **Fred Jack** » 30 Jun 2004 1:55 pm

I'm treading real easy here as I am not going to argue about this tuning.Mooney doesn't tune E-9th.In my opinion no one plays like Moon because no one thinks like Moon. He just sees things different than "normal" people.I'll tell him I said that.I have said it before.Frank Arnett does an excellant job as did Jeff Newman.Moon recently said of Jeff,"he sounds more like me than I do".Moon told me last night that he raised E-F in the 50's when he recorded on Challenge.I don't know from nuttin! Regards, Fred

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 30 Jun 2004 3:14 pm

Fred, Maybe he did that for a session. He normally kept his fender 1000 in E9. I was there. I played it many times (1960-1962).
I guess it doesn't matter if he was in G-Blunt though does it? Ralph does what Ralph does. I do what I do. Ralph,Buddy,Paul and others did not get where they are by trying to sound like someone else.
Fred,it is sad that you question my honesty. Let God be the judge. I only hope I helped with a little "first hand"information that no one else seemed to have.

Wally Maples · Post by **Wally Maples** » 30 Jun 2004 3:47 pm

Whatever he used it was great. I used to go sit in front of the bandstand when he played with Wynn at George's Roundup in Long Beach as the house band. They were all super.

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 30 Jun 2004 4:05 pm

Hey Wally, did you ever go to the Roundup after Windy and Moon left fot Vegas? Bobby Austin(Wynns bass player) moved up to take over the vocals. I played steel guitar, Roy Counts played lead and fiddle, Helen(Peaches) Price played drums. I was called Johnny Dee. We were on KFOX every night. They wanted me to sound like Moon but......

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 30 Jun 2004 4:26 pm

John,

I sincerely believe you. I do have a problem on the high G# string on the Fender 400's and 1000's however. I owned a 400 with 6 pedals. NOt only could I not raise that high G# to an A but I often could not even bring it up to an G# without it often breaking before it got to G#.

In talking with others who owned them, similar stories and some on this forum have concurred with the problem I had. The interesting thing was that when Fender switched to the 800/2000 models with the ShoBud type moving bridge, no more premature breakage of strings.

I am wondering what Ralph was able to do about the breakage? Incidently the string broke right at the top of the fixed bridge as the string was pulled over it. Later Fender came out with rollers for the fixed bridges. It did not help one bit in my case.

Do you know what Ralph might have been doing to stop the incessant breakage. Most did indeed tune down to Eb9 or D9 to get around the problem as I understand it.

Again dear friend, I am in NO way disputing you. I am just relating my own experinces and those of a number of others who owned them

carl

Fred Jack · Post by **Fred Jack** » 30 Jun 2004 4:36 pm

John, I really do not see where you think I question your honesty or integrity.I certainly did not imply that.I do not question what you say about Moon's tuning.If thats how you see it so be it.
As for your credentials I do not question them either.I got to So Cal in Jan 1955 and left in Nov 1962.I never made it to The roundups but I did play some at Sils and Sherry's.I spent most of my time in the San Fernando Valley.Sorry that you mistook my post as insulting.Regards, Fred

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 30 Jun 2004 4:46 pm

I recently asked Moon about how he got the first string to raise to G#. He said he used a banjo string and he had some kind of string holder after the changer hook that enabled the string to go up to A.

IMHO, to get the Mooney licks on a standard E9, two changes are necessary:

1) an independent raise of a whole tone on the high E string, best suited on a pedal like p.8, and

2) a 1/2 tone lower on the high G# string most preferably, or a 1/2 tone raise on the F# string.

I have a Fender 1000 that has the Mooney changes on it. When trying to emulate the man's playing, it's easiest when you have his tuning. The 1000 I have is the short-scale (23") model, so the G# raise is no problem.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Russ Wever · Post by **Russ Wever** » 30 Jun 2004 8:26 pm

Herb,
Maybe he used Hog Ringsas a lot of Fender players did way back then to reduce string breakage.
~Russ

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 1 Jul 2004 2:02 am

Hi Russ,good to see you here. I haven't seen you since You played bass with Buddy and Bobby at the Legion Post in St. Charles.
I hear that you are doing some good picking in Branson. You are a very good, multi-talented musician and one of the "good guys" to boot.
I have heard of using a high-A banjo string back in the good old days. I was playing a Fender 400 and for the G# I used what I could find,which was a 10 gauge string. one would break occasionally but not often enough to bother me. I carried a wad of them with me.
I never noticed anything special on Moons bridge or puller. Carl you are right about that rough bridge. Oil was the only "modification" I ever used. I had more trouble with cables breaking where they soldered into the loop that hooked onto the puller. For that reason I carried a soldering iron and some solder.
This thread is bringing back a lot of memories. I asked Moon why he never tuned and used the 2nd neck on his Fender 1000. If you knew him you would expect a funny answer. He said "By golly, I'm saving that for hard times". One day he told me that he was thinking of stringing it up with double strings for a harpsichord effect. I don't know if he ever did that. Now we can do that with a "chorus" effect.
As for "noise control" of volume pedals, Moon would simply turn the pedal upside down (he never had a bottom on it)and pour into it whatever was handy. This was usually a "salty dog". The fender pedal which we both used had a pot which was not sealed.
Fred, thank you for coming back with your comments.
Carl, maybe I am not remembering a lot of string "popping". I just don't remember it being a big problem. I now use a 11.5 or 12 gauge which works better that a 10. Jeff told me to try the 12 gauge and I found that it was stronger by the nature of more mass and the tone balanced better with the other strings. But,of course, now we have a roller bridge.

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 1 Jul 2004 5:24 am

John - I just wanted to thank you for the great first hand information you provided on this topic, which is very important to those who have responded. Everyone here seems to agree that Mooney's playing was something special to them and naturally we've all wondered about his set up. I agree with you that the essence of the Mooney sound was in his right hand...

That being said, I've been curious also about his amp settings. As acknowledged, his tone depends largely on his picking. I've always suspected that he picks as close to the bridge as possible. His sound on the Buck Owens recordings was very bright, but also had a kind of woodiness, for lack of a better word. Do you remember if he did anything special with his amp?

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 1 Jul 2004 11:15 am

Tim, I think you are right about picking close to the bridge. Honestly, I never payed close attention to that but when I tried to get his sound I played close to the bridge and another little trick.... I pushed my picks back on my fingers so I could hit the string with the pick and the end of my fingers (which deadened the string). As I watched Ralph play I noticed that he did not do this. His picks stuck out from his fingers. This is another example of his magic. We try everything to emulate him but his sound is still a mystery to most if not all of us.
As for the amplifier; I never noticed the settings. Ralph was not particular about equipment... he just played his guitar.
I do remember one night when he said he had a session to do the next day and he wanted a "dead" sounding amp. He borrowed an old magnatone amp from Norm Owens. That is about as "dead" as they get.
I did mention in an earlier reply that his regular amp was a big Fender Pro-amp. A head and a cabinet with a 15" speaker.
I hope I have not rambled too far off the track with this subject. Ralph is very interesting, lovable and downright funny to me. I will always treasure the time I got to spend in his presence.