Keyless vs Keyed

admin · Post by **b0b** » 19 Nov 2014 4:14 pm

I've never understood the physics of it, Earnest. I just know that the 3 keyless guitars I've owned all had hysteresis on the E string, easily measurable and perceptible if you listened closely. Less than a keyed guitar, but it was there.

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 20 Nov 2014 2:46 am

My Infinity has so little hysteresis it's difficult to perceive on my Boss Chromatic tuner.
Two things I believe kill it. One is the use of larger than normal diameter roller nuts with a smaller than normal axle, and two, roller bearings are used in the changer where the raise mechanism contacts the fingers.

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 20 Nov 2014 3:29 am

I played key less for 10 years, (Sierra)..hands down best felling guitar I have ever had,

Howard Palmer · Post by **Howard Palmer** » 20 Nov 2014 8:29 am

I've had keyless and keyed guitars over the years and have ended up using keyless guitars exclusively nowadays. I agree that there isn't a huge difference in tone, but my preference has do with some points that I haven't seen anyone mention yet.
I work in local bands in fairly small venues driving to the jobs in cars jammed with pa gear and guitar player's equipment and am now over 60 years old. A keyless guitar is often 3 or 4 inches shorter and 8-10 pounds lighter than a keyed guitar and when space is at a premium, that smaller size and weight matters. I once refitted a tenor sax case to hold a Kline 12 and it made a wonderfully compact,light package that would fit in an airline overhead.
Maybe the fact that the famous players don't use keyless guitars has to do with the fact that most of them have someone else humping the case around for them.

Jack Wilson · Post by **Jack Wilson** » 20 Nov 2014 10:51 am

I won't mention a name, but a pro player I talked to at the Texas Convention told me he liked to take a keyless SD-10 on the road or when he had to fly. But he always used his keyed D-10 when he played the Grand Ole Opry for the look.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 23 Nov 2014 6:47 pm

Keyless hands down. For more reasons then listed here. I'll never go back to those heavy ugly keyed steel guitars.

Bill L. Wilson · Post by **Bill L. Wilson** » 23 Nov 2014 8:33 pm

I sat down to my FIRST and LAST KEYLESS Pedal steel Fri. afternoon at a friends shop here in OKC. I can't stand sliding down to that first fret and nothings left, my hands are way to big, and at 220lbs. I'm a bit large for a steel that small. It was a BMI S-12 converted to E9 10string, and keyless is just to weird for me. plus it moved all over the floor when you hit the Knees. Good guitar, well built, it's just not for me, and that Allen wrench instead of a tuning key is real PITA. I prefer my 20yr. old Road Dog Emmons LGII with TUNING KEYS, over any guitar on the market cause it works for me.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 24 Nov 2014 6:46 am

George Redmon wrote:Keyless hands down. For more reasons then listed here. I'll never go back to those heavy ugly keyed steel guitars.

Me too, George. I've owned and played both and keyless is the only way to go. As b0b stated, there was still some hysteresis on the 4th string raise, E to F on my old Williams keyless 400 series. 4 Years ago, I bought a 700 series keyless Williams. Problem has been solved. I asked Bill Rudolph what he did to remedy the problem. He said it was in the changer and he fixed it. He would not tell me what he did though.

I can barely construct a square box. It's not like I was going to start manufacturing another steel guitar and go into competition.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 24 Nov 2014 8:58 am

George Redmon wrote:Keyless hands down. For more reasons then listed here. I'll never go back to those heavy ugly keyed steel guitars.

A common phrase from the 40s-50s,,,that is still applicable today,,,,,,"you ain't a'woofin'",,,,(translation in case it was more of a southern phrase,,means,,,,,"agreed",,,,)

Will Cowell · Post by **Will Cowell** » 26 Nov 2014 5:41 am

And the weight difference, c'mon, guys, that has to count for something too, right? Shorter body equals less weight, and less flex because shorter, so less cabinet drop.

Remember, if you want different outcomes, you have to do something different.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 26 Nov 2014 6:07 am

Having built a tuner with no keys and no nut, because it was all I could make with my limited resources, and having discovered that it works fine and the strings are easy to change which is a shame because they don't break, I am not going to try and improve on it by introducing a load of gearwheels and pulleys and lengths of spare string.

Yes, it's quick to grab a tuning peg, but it's even quicker to knock it by accident.

Andy Eder · Post by **Andy Eder** » 28 May 2015 8:21 am

Hi guys,

I was wondering if you could give me your opinion on a Zum D10 keyless, 8/5?

I've been offered one but am concerned with resale down the road.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 28 May 2015 12:07 pm

Cowboy Eddie Long, sure get a lot out Of his BMI keyless.

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 28 May 2015 12:10 pm

Andy if the keyless mod was done right I don't see why it wouldn't whole Its value.I know I'd like to have one.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 28 May 2015 12:23 pm

" the Kline never goes out of tune."

True dat!

GaryL · Post by **GaryL** » 4 Jun 2015 1:25 pm

Keyless is great for the smaller size and weight and ease of string changing. I also like the difference in tone, although every steel has it's own sound. My dream guitar would be a keyless Emmons LeGrande Double 10. Black, of course!!

Bruce Derr · Post by **Bruce Derr** » 4 Jun 2015 4:50 pm

With all of the new lightweight guitars that have been introduced in recent years, I am a little surprised that nobody has come out with a keyless model specifically designed for fly gigs and other situations where transporting a normal steel is difficult. Imagine a steel only slightly longer than its scale length that you could put in a gig bag and take on a bus or subway.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Jun 2015 5:13 pm

Put it in a gig bag overhead. pack your clothes in the case and check it in.

Bob Tuttle · Post by **Bob Tuttle** » 4 Jun 2015 6:23 pm

Bruce, check this one out.

http://www.gfimusicalproducts.com/page54.html

Markus Mayerhofer · Post by **Markus Mayerhofer** » 4 Jun 2015 10:42 pm

Both of my guitars (Sierra and GFI U-12) are keyless.
Stringbreakage goes to a minimum.
I've to admit i'm a very very lazy string-changer, and i cant even remember when i changed strings on my Sierra the last time, but i guess it was about 8 months ago, with excessive practicing and gigging...
Nevertheless i should change strings soon, not to overstretch my luck.
Especially on the GFI changing strings is a very smooth and quick procedure. You dont have to bring the strings to a high tension manually before locking them.
On the Sierra you have to pull hard to bring the strings to relative high tension, especially string 3....otherwise its very hard to bring it on pitch...
But all in all, i'm happy with the keyless systems...

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 5 Jun 2015 5:23 am

Bruce,,,,(and anyone interested),,,I'm currently building a 10 string, 24 1/4" scale keyless lap steel that will be a tad less than 26" over all. Maple and walnut,,,,Should be completed next week.

Bruce Derr · Post by **Bruce Derr** » 5 Jun 2015 7:56 am

Bob, that's getting closer to what I have in mind. Not surprising it's from GFI. I respect and appreciate that they don't feel overly beholden to tradition at the expense of innovation. I liked that about Joe Kline as well.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 5 Jun 2015 9:00 am

Keyless guitars are absolutely unbeatable for the guest bedroom...

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 5 Jun 2015 12:12 pm

as long as you don't have to look at it!

Jim Priebe · Post by **Jim Priebe** » 5 Jun 2015 4:03 pm

Gee Chris - this must be your worst nightmare!
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 62#2393062

It's all in the eyes of the beholder.

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