Working With a Guitarist

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 27 May 2015 12:37 pm

I played a crawfish boil gig a couple months ago that was a sorta free for all, musicians that were invited. When I started sitting up, one guitar player showed up, another and then there were four. I knew none of these guys and I thought, this is going to be a long night.
I was really surprised and stunned to find out that these guys knew what to do and when to do it. Nobody walked on anyone and it was a pleasant night and good music. Very rare but really happened.
Just like Jimmy said, good musicians know when and what o play.

Drew Pierce · Post by **Drew Pierce** » 27 May 2015 6:02 pm

It's like sex. If you have to talk about it it's probably not working...

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 May 2015 6:21 pm

I've played with 2 guitar players in my life that worked so well together, that we rarely had to talk to each other. We just knew where to play, and what to play. We hardly ever stepped on each other. Those guys are few and far between. It's like we shared one brain.

Glen Derksen · Post by **Glen Derksen** » 27 May 2015 9:38 pm

Richard Sinkler wrote:I've played with 2 guitar players in my life that worked so well together, that we rarely had to talk to each other. We just knew where to play, and what to play. We hardly ever stepped on each other. Those guys are few and far between. It's like we shared one brain.

On only a few occasions I've worked with extremely LOUD rhythm players or wannabe lead players who had to constantly blow their wad on every song, but mostly I've been blessed with working with guitarists and other musicians who knew when to lay back. On the other hand, how many of us cats might have been annoying to others during our apprentice years?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 28 May 2015 6:21 am

Most of the guitar players I have worked with in over 44 years have been in control of their playing and volume. The 2 I mentioned were able to even play harmony parts with me without ever working on them.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 29 May 2015 2:53 pm

I just walk them out to my pickup and show them my truck-gun collection. I mumble some too. Things about I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE DARNIT!!

Haven't had a problem in years...

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 29 May 2015 7:14 pm

This pertains to ANY member of a combo group.

I worked with a very talented younger keyboard player in a modern-ish country band who use both hands all the time all night long.

I had a nice talk with her regarding taking turns padding, using right hand only, playing in a different register than me, etc. Made no difference. I was left with no choice but to exit the group. The sonic canvas was full at all times in my range.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 29 May 2015 9:04 pm

Yeah, here is one of Dave van Allen's canonical SGF topics again. I think most of us know that this can be a problem with a player of any instrument, including steel. But steel players seem to have a thing about guitar players.

Speaking as a guitar player as well as a steel player - in my experience, there are two main reasons for problems:

1. Musicians sometimes work in different musical cultures and simply don't understand what is expected when they move to a different one. I find that talking to people like this sometimes helps, but I need to tactfully get the point across that they are in new terrain and need to make adjustments. For example, rock (or other popular style) guitarists are often expected to play a lot of rhythm guitar, basically as part of the rhythm section. That may sound fine there, but often doesn't translate well to other, more sparse, laid-back styles. If I can show someone like this examples of what is needed, it sometimes works. And that works the other direction also. I have sometimes found good classic country musicians lost in a rock, blues, or other context where they're supposed to support more aggressively. And don't bother to tell me that kind of music is all crap. It's just different.

2. Sometimes a musician is either totally clueless about ensemble playing or just a flat-out jackass and doesn't care what anybody thinks about what they're doing. Once I figure this out, I don't bother to waste my breath, 'cause it will only aggravate things.

When I hear stuff like, "Good musicians always know what is expected." - I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. I have seen good musicians who play a lot of different styles of music but are sometimes out-of-synch with what is expected when pushed into something different, at first. I play lots of different styles, and I definitely appreciate someone cluing me in when I'm subbing in a musical context in which I don't work a lot. Good musicians definitely try to help someone in this situation, my experience anyway. OK, sometimes it's a waste of breath. Worth a try anyway, IMHO.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 30 May 2015 9:14 am

tastefulness is tastefulness.

Jerry Hedge · Post by **Jerry Hedge** » 30 May 2015 2:28 pm

I just got fired for complaining about an overplaying guitar player. Unfortunately I had the gig for 16 tears, and the guitar player just started the gig.

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 31 May 2015 6:16 am

I get multiple calls from this one bandleader, and they have one guy who just isn't interested in being a tasteful ensemble player. I like the bandleader, and all the other guys except the one guy who doesn't realize it's an ensemble.
Like Bob stated, music should be fun. It's not, because this one player doesn't know and doesn't care to trade fills. It saps every bit of potential fun from the gig. I've tried talking with him, which was met with indifference the first time, hostility the second time.
It's not " don't know " as much as "don't care ". He's very territorial , and resents any direction, particularly from me, a sub. When I suggested the eye contact, batting order , trading approach, I got a very cold response.
I'm done with the conflict vibe. I hate turning down the work, and I hate accepting the work. The guy doesn't even shut up while the singer is singing. Noodles a melody over what the singer is trying to sing.
I'm a bit older and more tenured than the offending sideman, but it's a drag to be the "taste monitor" or self elected ensemble consultant . The band leader doesn't lead on the bandstand, and I don't feel like explaining why I don't take most of the work he offers. I will eventually have to as a courtesy, but I'm thinking it will come across as a criticism, which is too much input from me, a sub.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 31 May 2015 10:00 am

Once, a guitarist told me; "I don't know what that thing does, but I am the lead player, and I play all the leads."

The best story about this is when our fellow forumite Mike Johnstone, (another wonderful player who deserves more recognition than he has received,) did a gig with the late Jerry Hall, who hogged every solo and fill, till finally somebody requested Steel Guitar Rag, and Hall proceeded to play the song from start to finish, without giving Mike a ride.

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