Fender 800 question

James Zurek · Post by **James Zurek** » 25 Jun 2004 10:25 am

I have a couple of question regarding the Fender 800 PSG. It may apply to the others as well.

1) When did they start making the natural color models?
2) I want to capture the early to mid-sixties west coast sound. Can a 70’s model Fender do it? Basically, is the pickup the same as those from the 60’s? What other factors would influence the possible difference in the sound of a 70’s Fender from a 60’s Fender?
3) Is it correct that the ShoBud/Fender guitars are rod vs. Cable?
4) Does anyone actually have a picture of a natural colored Fender PSG?

Thanks!

James

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 25 Jun 2004 11:46 am

James,

When you say "natural color" are you referring to the original ash colored 400's and 1000's? Or are you talking about the later "Sunburst" models?

For the record, here is to the best of my recall:

1. In the 50's (I am going to say '56-not sure), Fender introduced two PSG's, a 4 pedal single neck 8 string (400) and a Double 8 string with 8 pedals (1000). Both guitars were made of light Ash colored bodies and bright aluminum magnesium surrounds with stamped metal pedals.

Both guitars could be ordered with up to 10 pedals. They were cable operated and 2 strings could be pulled per pedal. Special slave cables could be ordered that would permit more pulls if necessary.

The changers were single raise/single lower systems and the changer finger moved left and right that pulled the strings over a fixed bridge. The nut was a grooved fixed bar.

2. Later Fender offered a retro-fit and supplied roller bridges and roller nuts.

3. It made no difference (IMO) to the inordinantly high number of premature string breakage.

4. Sometime in the 60's's (I am going to say '62-not sure), Fender introduced the 800 and 2000. Both models were made in Sunburst finishes, had a black painted aluminum surround and cast black pedals. In addition, they were double raise/double lower changers.

Also, these models did a way with the string breakage problem by introducing the Sho-Bud type moving bridge sytem of pulling the strings. These guitars had a new slanted type PU.

And (for most) a useless feature called a damping bar that would allow a staccato string affect. This would give a sound similar to what violin players get when they pluck the strings instead of bowing them. Moving a Lever placed a soft felt lined bar across the strings to the right of the PU to dampen the strings.

The 800 was a single 10 string PSG which came standard with 6 pedals. The 2000 was a Double 10 that came standard with 10 pedals (I believe it was 10-not 100% sure). The 800 could be ordered with up to 10 pedals.

5. They then began using the Sunburst finish on the 400's (not sure about the 1000's) along with the cast pedals. I am not sure whether these guitars had the new changer in them or not. I imagine Herb Steiner or others would know for sure. Also fellow forumite Moon of Alaska plays one I believe. So he would know.

I never new Fender to offer an 800 or 2000 with a light finish. But I heard on this forum that they indeed did offer it. Again, I believe Herb would know. Or others.

Hope this helps,

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 25 June 2004 at 12:53 PM.]

Carl West · Post by **Carl West** » 25 Jun 2004 11:50 am

If you mean the blond color, that was the first, and a standard color.
If you mean natural wood, that was a special order.
Difference between the late 60's and 70's models probably don't amount to that much. Pick-up's pretty much the same until the Model 800-S10 and 2000 D-10 hit the market.
Jody Carver can give you more Information.

Carl West

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 25 Jun 2004 12:37 pm

The west coast style of the 50's and 60's is defined by the early Buck Owens, Wynn Stewart and maybe Warren Smith recordings. There are other examples, but these are the primary ones. Fender steel guitars were used on many of these recordings, especially Ralph Mooney on his 1000, but later players used other guitars, too. Brumley, I believe, started on Fender and later went to a ZB.

If you are wanting to capture the west coast sound, it depends somewhat on the particular player that you are listening to. Mooney and Brumley's playing styles were totally different to my ear, both very unique. A heavy dose of "twang", for lack of a better word, seems to me to be the one common characteristic of the west coast steel sound. I would think any Fender 800 (through a Fender tube amp, of course) would a perfectly suitable tool with which to emulate any of the great west coast players of that era.

PS: I don't know of any natural finish Fender PSG's. Here's a shot of my standard white/blonde 1958 Fender 1000:
http://www.dalhartimperials.com/dalhartimperials/look/skylark00/003.html
[This message was edited by Tim Whitlock on 25 June 2004 at 01:51 PM.]

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 25 Jun 2004 1:01 pm

James,

the Fender Artist by Sho-Bud is indeed rod-operated. In fact, it has the same undercarriage, pedals and knee levers that were later used in the Sho-Bud Super Pro. The changer is a Fender/Sho-Bud cross double raise/double lower with nylon tuners at the endplate. The keyhead is the same as on the 800/2000.

It plays like a Sho-Bud and sounds like a Fender - or at least very close to it. The best of both worlds.

Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, Sho~Bud Pro-I 3+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 25 Jun 2004 1:52 pm

To the best of my knowledge, Fender never offered a blond or natural finish on the 10-string 800 and 2000 models. (I believe these guitars were actually introduced at the NAMM show in '64.) Many of the Fender pedal guitars have been refinished, and it's sometimes hard for the untrained eye to spot this.

The first 400 and 1000 models had blond or natural bodies and pedalboards, with an unpainted aluminum frame, as Carl has already pointed out. There were, however, a few of the blond 8-string guitars in the color transition period ('62-'63) which had the same dark pebble-finish on the frame which was intoduced on the 1000 model, and later used on all the 10-string models. These blond body/dark frame guitars also had a blond pedal board. By late in '63, they had switched to the familiar sunburst body/pedal board finish on all their pedal guitars.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 25 Jun 2004 4:18 pm

The easy way to tell a refinish on the Fender steels is the decal on the front of the pedal bar. Most refins will not have that decal. The person who refinished the guitar usually just sands it off.

I have purchased 800/1000 Fenders that were custom colors that the owners thought had been refinished.

Carl West · Post by **Carl West** » 26 Jun 2004 6:29 am

Tim is pretty much right on with his information as to the West Coast sound. I worked for Wynn Stewart for many years until he moved the band to Las Vegas. At that time I used a Fender 400 with 6 pedals and a Fender Twin-reverb. Prior to Stewart's moved Ralph and myself sat in for each other on various jobs. Ralph did all of Stewart's recordings. Wynn and I became very close and we lost a great singer long before his time.

Carl West
Emmons D-10

Carl West · Post by **Carl West** » 26 Jun 2004 6:33 am

James, just for information, my Fender 2000
was Lake Placid blue with 11 chrome pedals and 4 chrome levers. It's still a bute for sure but hasn't been out of the case in many years. IMHO, I couldn't stand that sunburst color.

Carl West

James Zurek · Post by **James Zurek** » 26 Jun 2004 7:36 am

Thanks to everyone and your responses. Let me address a few points that have been brought up.

1) When I am talking west coast, I am talking Mooney. I am talking all of those great Toppa records like “Gene Davis: When He Let’s Her Forget” and Johnny & Jonie Mosby. I want that twanging bite. So I would say I am much more Mooney then Brumley. I love that pedal play….
2) The reason I asked on the color options on the 800 is in all of the original pictures I have seen (not that many), they are sunburst, but I have seen some newer pictures and there are some blonde and natural color one out there. The tip on the missing Fender decal on the lower brace is a good one. That is often missing.
3) My question regarding sound was based on the potential of finding a 70’s Fender 800. The whole point of going Fender and dealing with cables is get that Fender early 60’s bite and if I lose that with a 70’s guitar, that would be a problem. I suspect that as long as the pickup is the same, it would be fine…but is it??

Thanks to all for your info!

James

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Some kind of Sho-Bud Frankenstein guitar
Standel 50L12
Standel S60

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 26 Jun 2004 11:37 am

"I want that twanging bite. So I would say I am much more Mooney then Brumley."

James,

Here is a clear case of the players hands determining sound. You could take the exact same Fender PSG setup, let Ralph play it, then let Tom play it, and one could easily perceive that two entirely different guitars was used.

This is not usually the case. But in Tom's and Ralph's case it is paramount. They simply attack and play the strings sooooo differently as to project a sound entirely different.

So I would suggest your not being so much concerned with which Fender it is; rather that is is a Fender if you wish twangy sound. Further I might suggest you look at a 1000 also. Since as I recall both Ralph and Tom used those in lieu of the later models.

One serious consideration. As I mentioned, both the 400 and 1000 were indeed severe string breakers particularly with strings like our .011 3rd string. In fact it was NOT uncommon, to break every 3rd string instantly upon pressing the B pedal. ONLY when players tuned down to say an Eb9th or preferably a D9th could they stop this.

If you must use E9th then by all means seek the 800 or 2000. However, they did sound a bit different than the 400's and 1000's. As you say, the early ones have that twangy bite; whereas the 800's and 2000's tend to have a wee bit more mellow sound with not quite as much twangy bite to them.

Good luck,

carl

Justin B. French · Post by **Justin B. French** » 26 Jun 2004 1:21 pm

Here is a picture of my Fender 400. http://www.evertize.com/sutphin/vintage.htm

Jud

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Carter D10, Fender 400
Nashville 1000, Goodrich LDR
DigiTech RP-100

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 26 Jun 2004 2:18 pm

I still have my old Fender 1000 that I bought new in 1960. I don't know how many were made but mine is serial # 153. If production was started in 58 they weren't making too many per year.The guitar was ordered right from the factory so I know it didn't sit around in a dealers show room.
At a going price of around a thousand dollars most dealers didn't have them on the floor. I also purchased a Fender Showman amp. It was also a blond color and was one of the best amps I ever owned.
I don't know who designed the two cases for my guitar but they still look like new after 45 years.No wonder Jody loved this company.
Old Bud

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 26 Jun 2004 5:27 pm

What Carl said. In addition, when you hear Mooney on a modern guitar, you still hear that distinctive "twangy bite", which is 40% in his right hand and about 40% in his pedal work, to hazard a guess. If you can get that picking technique down, and a few of his signature licks (lots of quick pedal "pull-offs"), you have the sound. A Fender guitar is the cherry on the cake, but unfortunately the Mooney sound is not a built in feature. I wish it was

.[This message was edited by Tim Whitlock on 26 June 2004 at 06:29 PM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 26 Jun 2004 7:23 pm

A short time after the 1000 and 400 pedal guitars were introduced Fender sent all sales
man a roller bridge and nut assembly to be
installed in the field for those players who
had string breakage problems. There were many who had no problem but wanted the roller
nut installed to smooth out the feel and ease the action of the pedals.

I had no problem with string breakage as mentioned here, I used a 010 as a first string and dropped it to a G with no problem
the original pitch was a high A .010.

Many players till this day have a heavy foot
and use the incorrect brand of strings.
Some strings can stretch better than others.

My favorite 1000 and 400 guitars were the blonde with the chrome like almag frame and not the black crinkle finish as the later one's employed.

And like Carl West posted he hated the sunburst finish,,so did I.I wished I had the one that I posed with on my HCOA LP cover.