Working With Machine Shops

[James Quillian]

Does anyone have an idea as to what an average machine shop might charge to make parts? For example a lever or a bell crank?

I am not looking for precision estimates, just a general idea of whether or not it is a practical idea.

[Richard Sinkler]

Best to just talk to some local machine shops. Prices around the country will vary considerably. It would probably cost a lot more here in the Bay Area than in Texas.

[Erv Niehaus]

I took a square cross shaft to a machine shop to have the ends turned down to round. The fellow put the shaft in a lathe and did the job. When I asked him how much, he said: "If it takes longer to write up the invoice than to do the job, we don't charge".
Needless to say, I gave him some coffee money.

[Robert Parent]

It really depends on the part and how many are needed. There are zillion styles of the parts you ask about, without details one can't even take a guess.

Robert

[James Quillian]

Best to just talk to some local machine shops. Prices around the country will vary considerably. It would probably cost a lot more here in the Bay Area than in Texas.

I will do that of course. I am just one of these guys who likes to have a little information before doing so.

[Erv Niehaus]

James,
I don't know what brand of steel you are wanting parts for but my advice would be to see is there is another brand of guitar that might have similiar parts on it and you could obtain some from them. I would think it would be cheaper that making your own.
When I rebuilt my ZB last Winter, I looked around and decided that the old model MSA had parts that would work and I got them from Wayne Link in Canada.

[Ross Shafer]

As Robert correctly pointed out...without all the info needed, including designs, drawings etc. your question cannot be answered.

As a very rough idea you should count on $50-$100 an hour. Keep in mind the hourly rate will most likely and should be applied to any design/drawing/reverse engineering time as well as material procurement, programming (if cnc) and machine set up....cnc or manual. Actually cutting metal to make the part can often be the quickest/easiest part of all that's needed to send you home with your parts.

There's lots of shops including mine that will help out a nice guy like Erv with a bro-buddy deal on something super simple, but don't count on it and if they do...tip 'em very, very well!

[James Quillian]

James,
I don't know what brand of steel you are wanting parts for but my advice would be to see is there is another brand of guitar that might have similiar parts on it and you could obtain some from them. I would think it would be cheaper that making your own.
When I rebuilt my ZB last Winter, I looked around and decided that the old model MSA had parts that would work and I got them from Wayne Link in Canada.

I purposely have not mentioned the brand just to avoid a food fight. My efforts to get parts from the manufacturer have not gone well. I am sure others have had better experiences. I am sending you a pm with a question.

[Erv Niehaus]

James,
Hope you find what you are needing.

[Lane Gray]

Yup. Not sharing what you're after has always worked well for getting it.
Local Topeka machine shop charged 55/hour to drill out my Sho-Bud fingers. Took longer to set up than to drill 12 holes. They didn't charge for peening the rivets.

Musicians and car/motorcycle guys often move in the same circles, you might already know a person capable of doing it for the fun, the challenge or because they like music.

[Mike Perlowin]

We have two machinists who make steel parts. Michael Yahl, ad Jim Palenscar. You should talk to them.

[Gary N Jones]

We have two machinists who make steel parts. Michael Yahl, ad Jim Palenscar. You should talk to them.

I am a retired machinist and I also make steel guitar parts for other forum members Gary

[Ray Minich]

Currently in a love/hate relationship with GD&T
(Geometrical Dimensioning and Tolerancing)



The part on the left is what they want. The part on the right "meets the print...".

Oops...

[James Quillian]

Thanks to everyone for the input. This issue has been settled to my satisfaction. That doesn't mean the discussion is over. It just means my problem has been fixed.

IMO, it serves all buyers to have more than one source for parts. What I need to do now is learn how to work on, adjust and maintain these temperamental instruments. If anyone was born knowing how they have my respect.

I will say it is worth the effort regardless of the difficulty.

I am a man of many ideas and experiments and every now and then one works. Has anyone ever tried using hydraulic lines instead of the standard linkages. An engineer friend brought that up when I was showing him how my instrument functions.

Has this ever been tried? I don't want to entertain the idea if the effort has already been tried and discarded because it didn't work.

Thanks again.

[Lane Gray]

I believe it was tried in the 50s and discarded due to the state of hydraulic technology in the 50s.
I'm not sure hydraulic would be cheaper than rods and cranks.
I'm sure it'd be technically feasible now.

[DG Whitley]

James Quillian said:

What I need to do now is learn how to work on, adjust and maintain these temperamental instruments.

This DVD from Al Brisco might get you started:




I believe Mickey Adams may be working on a more detailed version, or that was my thinking.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

[Donny Hinson]

I believe it was tried in the 50s and discarded due to the state of hydraulic technology in the 50s.
I'm not sure hydraulic would be cheaper than rods and cranks.
I'm sure it'd be technically feasible now.

Feasible? Maybe, but likely not advisable. With flexible lines (the only really advantageous approach) you'd be worrying about kinks, and also about mice, rats, and other four-legged creatures gnawing away when no one's around.

[James Quillian]

DG, so far, I haven't been able to find that video in stock anywhere. I don't get a response out of Brisco's site either so I have had to guess it is no longer available.

If anyone has a copy, I am happy to buy it.

James Quillian said:

What I need to do now is learn how to work on, adjust and maintain these temperamental instruments.

This DVD from Al Brisco might get you started:




I believe Mickey Adams may be working on a more detailed version, or that was my thinking.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

[Stephen Williams]

Bicycles have hydraulic brakes. I looked into it but decided it was way too expensive.

[richard burton]

It's horses for courses, yes, hydraulics could be used very easily (and expensively), but a simple bell-crank and pull-rod assembly will accomplish the same task much more simply.

[Richard Sinkler]

I believe it was tried in the 50s and discarded due to the state of hydraulic technology in the 50s.
I'm not sure hydraulic would be cheaper than rods and cranks.
I'm sure it'd be technically feasible now.

Feasible? Maybe, but likely not advisable. With flexible lines (the only really advantageous approach) you'd be worrying about kinks, and also about mice, rats, and other four-legged creatures gnawing away when no one's around.

I agree. And, I can live with something breaking under the guitar and a rod flopping down onto my knee (actually happened twice on gigs), but would not like a line breaking and pouring hydraulic fluid onto my legs.

[Joe Naylor]

You have psg parts just up the road from ya - and that is all he does call Michael Yahl

michael@psgparts.com

602.315.6732

do not pay attention to the area code he is close to Temple

Joe Naylor
www.steelseat.com

[Bobby D. Jones]

With Modern machine shops having computerized milling machines it would be possible if they have already made a part you are looking for they would have the program stored. Change a few cutters and install the program and they could be making the part in about 5 minutes. Contact several machine shop and see if they have the parts you want programed. or if they could get the program from some source to use to make the reports. It may be easier to order them someone who sells them if they have them in stock. They may only schedule the part being made once a year.

[Richard Sinkler]

With Modern machine shops having computerized milling machines it would be possible if they have already made a part you are looking for they would have the program stored. Change a few cutters and install the program and they could be making the part in about 5 minutes. Contact several machine shop and see if they have the parts you want programed. or if they could get the program from some source to use to make the reports. It may be easier to order them someone who sells them if they have them in stock. They may only schedule the part being made once a year.

That's a pretty tall order. Chances of a machine shop having made the parts you need before are pretty slim. Steel guitar parts are pretty specialized for the most part. And, it isn't just a matter of the shop getting a program and presto, out come your parts. There is the matter of cutting raw stock into the blanks that are needed. Then the setup of the vise(s). Setting up the zero point. Changing out finished parts with new blanks. Some parts may require multiple operations. That is expensive enough. And if you need their applications engineer (programmer) to program the part, well, you're talking big money. If it's only a couple parts, you can find a machinist with a manual mill that could run off a few parts, but that's not real cheap either. You are paying for experienced people who make fairly decent money.

When Barry Thomas was making Thomas steel guitars, he had maybe half a dozen old Bridgeport CNC machines, and I mean old. I was the Service Manager for the Northern California office of Machinery Sales Co. (MASCO) the largest distributor for Bridgeport, Cincinnati Milacron, among others for 8 years. One of my service techs was one of a half dozen techs that still knew how to work on them. Only a few distributors in the country still had the old boards used in them, and one third party company that still repaired some of the boards. Barry had a machine set up for different parts that he left set up. This is also the reason some companies order parts for stock. They get them cheaper in quantity, and have them on hand to assemble guitars quicker.

For sure, if you can get parts from the builder or third party vendors like Michael Yahl, James Morehead, and maybe a few others, that's probably the cheapest route.

I want to replace all the pull pins (dog bones) in my Carter D10 with brass bushings to hold the rods. I can get the threaded brass stadoffs in the size I need for pretty cheap. But I dont have access to a drill press to drill the hole for the rod. I would need to buy a small drill press, a vise, drill bits. I can buy the parts for $6 each already made from Al Brisco, but that gets expensive too.