Getting tone I want - Newby question alert!!

Ken Greene · Post by **Ken Greene** » 21 Apr 2015 6:15 pm

Hi,

I'm just a flat-out beginner, guitar player, semi-retired, loves pedal steel, gonna give it a shot.
I have an MSA Classic S-10 from the 70's, works great, but I feel like it sounds a bit thin. I'd like to get that rich, full-body steel sound that I hear so often and love. I realize (as a guitarist) than quite a bit of tone comes down to technique, so I do consider that. I looked into changing the pickup to a Bill Lawrence, but turns out mounting it is not so easy, and probably have to route the guitar. Don't really want to do that.
Any suggestions at all for getting a great tone with this MSA, would be greatly appreciated. Just comment on anything that comes to mind, I've got a lot to learn and I'd like to hear it all.
Thanks, and warm regards.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 21 Apr 2015 8:58 pm

You can fatten your tone up by picking 12 frets up from where your bar is.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 21 Apr 2015 9:21 pm

Find someone in your area to take in person lessons with and work on tone. If that won't work, try taking lessons via Skype from someone. Try to find a good player in your area that gets good tone and get them to play your steel for a bit so you can evaluate the tone the steel is capable of achieving. Your steel is probably fine. Play others' steels and find out what kind of tone you can get with something else.

I would try all of the above before changing pickups. If you have to route the guitar to make a pickup fit, DON'T; find another pickup.

If you're just a beginner, it's way too soon to be blaming your steel for poor tone. Play the steel as it is for at least a couple years, and then reconsider.

Ken Greene · Post by **Ken Greene** » 21 Apr 2015 9:33 pm

Not blaming the steel, rather just trying to feel my way around the instrument. How is that tone achieved? As a guitarist, I know every type guitar I play has a different sound, and many have quirks. I'd like to know what people do to get the sound they like, and what things matter, and make a difference. If it's purely technique, then it doesn't matter what pedal steel you have, as long as it works... there must be some differences in tone that make people chose one over the other...

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 21 Apr 2015 10:03 pm

I found that, in my journey and many others, tone was the last dime to drop.
The right amount of bar pressure (you don't need much, but always at least a bit) and keeping the trailing fingers of the bar hand on the strings improve tone.
Also practice some without the amp. Picking with a firm hand helps.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 21 Apr 2015 10:42 pm

I cant recall seeing an MSA with aluminum necks. ..but should ask just in case. ...string metallurgy. ..gauges. ...

We need details on your signal path. ....Pickup model...cabling...vol pedal...effects.. amp....eq settings...speaker?

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 21 Apr 2015 10:45 pm

also, you should try playing through a delay pedal for a minute to see how that fattens up the fullness of sound. this will at least give you another perspective to consider.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 21 Apr 2015 11:08 pm

What Tom said. And I disagree with Mr. Ivey. Ick. Hate delay.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 22 Apr 2015 4:47 am

Ken, you should consider getting the "Right Hand Alpha" course by Jeff Newman. It will explain a lot. And make sure that your picking hand is not too close to the changer. If you pick right over the pickup, the tone will be thin. The amp you are using will make a difference too.

Lane hates delay, but the only time I don't use it is when I am using distortion. Try delay at about 250ms, no repeats, adjust the level to taste. I live near Manchester, between Ann Arbor and Jackson, if you're not too far away I could probably show you a couple things that would help with your sound.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 22 Apr 2015 4:58 am

Have a guy who can play come over and play your steel. You will see that you cannot buy what you are looking for. Take some live lessons and practice allot for a few years. Maybe then you will decide that you want a different steel or want to modify yours.

If you choose to ignore everybody's advice and screw around with pickups there are pickups available that will fit your steel without routing it out. It takes serious modification of the pickup baseplate and will not be easy. It won't be productive either.

Bill Ferguson · Post by **Bill Ferguson** » 22 Apr 2015 5:23 am

Bob Hoffnar is right on. You can't achieve what you are looking for with different equipment.
It takes practice, practice and more practice.

Some people can achieve tone very quickly, but most fight it for a lifetime.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 22 Apr 2015 5:24 am

Bob speaks truth. AND he makes one of the best humbuckers out there. He'll sell you one you don't need, but he'll tell you that you don't need it.
If you play Bill's guitar and he plays yours, you'll see. Or hear.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 22 Apr 2015 5:37 am

Delay may make a good tone sound more interesting, but it won't make a good tone. Only your hands can do that, mainly the right. I would do what Paul says and have someone try your guitar. I don't know anything about MSAs, but I'd be surprised if you managed to buy one with a rubbish pickup.

Do as Bill Moore suggests and get Right Hand Alpha. There is no one right way of doing anything, but Jeff Newman's worked for me. I had been enjoying myself for about a year, but my hand was too flat*, I was being way too gentle on the strings and my blocking was poor. He gets you to dig right under the strings, and blocking becomes part of the action, like the dampers in a piano. Now I'm much more in control of the beginning and the end of notes, and the bit in between is so much better too.

A lot of our perception of tone comes from the initial attack (I think it's called the Haas effect), and Newman sees to that.

[*DISCLAIMER! Some fine players have what looks like a pretty flat hand position and it works for them]

J R Rose · Post by **J R Rose** » 22 Apr 2015 7:53 am

Hi Ken, All these Professional guys are right. I am not a pro at all but have had my stage years. It is a combination of everything, guitar, volume pedal, cords,
picks, bar & amp. No one mentioned amp settings. You cannot use guitar settings for steel settings not to say that their might be exceptions. The Nashville 112 seems to be a favorite amp today but you can have three of them side by side with same settings and they will have some difference in sound. I have found a good rule to start is to set bass at full, treble half and everything else less than half. Then while picking three strings that are a cord firmly adjust them till it brightens up. Even tho I am not much of a picker I can set down at my steel and diddle on it and by my sound you would think I could pick with the best of them, but I can't. But with that said, as Mr. Buddy Emmons said to me one time years ago at a seminar, It's All In The Hands. So don't get discourage, give you self some time and practice and go listen to anyone you can and you can learn something from everyone no matter how good or bad they are. Wish you luck, J.R. Rose

Craig Baker · Post by **Craig Baker** » 22 Apr 2015 8:43 am

The thing that jumped out at me is: He said the MSA sounds "thin". Of all the guitars out there, I can't imagine an MSA sounding thin. My MSA, and most of the ones I've ever heard sounded anything but thin.

Craig

Larry Dering · Post by **Larry Dering** » 22 Apr 2015 9:01 am

Ken, Take a good look at what string groups you are playing. True some guys just see to get that tone on anything, but the right string grips is vital as is the hand position. Try to keep the right hand around the 23rd fret. Good instruction will save you tons of money and stress.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 22 Apr 2015 9:12 am

One other thing I missed in the thin tone checklist is fingerpick make model and gauge. The tone gets thinner the thinner the fingerpicks.

Richard Wilhelm · Post by **Richard Wilhelm** » 22 Apr 2015 10:21 am

If you have a pot volume pedal, you'll probably need some type of boost/buffer to help your tone get to your amp without loosin it's richness. Even a cheap stomp box compressor for gain might do the trick. I once gave up steel playing years ago cause there were no tuners available, volume pedals I found were rough gear based ones, my amp was not close to being adaquate, I just could not sound like Sneaky Pete or Pete Drake, and there was no SGF or also in my case a Fender Steel Forum. Just don't give up but I believe electronics is a big part of the equation. If you list every part of your signal path including the brand of your cords, these fine people on the forum can help you even better.

(edited)

Sven Kontio · Post by **Sven Kontio** » 22 Apr 2015 10:37 am

Being a three year n00b I strongly suggest you keep pickin'. ItÂ´s taken me all this time to realize itÂ´s all in my right hand. Everything counts: how deep you dig into the strings, how hard or soft you pick the strings, the angle of the picks hitting the strings, the type of picks, the picking position on the fretboard, the angle of the right hand (elbow in), and more... Keep pickinÂ´!

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 22 Apr 2015 10:45 am

Richard Wilhelm wrote:If you have a pot volume pedal, you'll probably need some type of boost/buffer to help your tone get to your guitar without loosin it's richness.

this won't help your 'thin' sound problem.

Butch Mullen · Post by **Butch Mullen** » 22 Apr 2015 11:18 am

What amp are you using?

Jason Putnam · Post by **Jason Putnam** » 22 Apr 2015 12:45 pm

I have found in my very limited experience that that tone you hear can change day to day. I don't know why!! One night I will cut my amp on, set down at my steel and play and I think man listen to that!! Sounds Awesome!! Next evening, cut it on set down at the steel. Doesn't sound very good. No knobs turned or anything different. I think our ears play tricks on us!!! Unless someone more qualified than me could explain why that happens.?? As far as the thin sound you are experiencing, I had the same problem when I had my Stage One. I always thought it sounded too thin and I couldn't get it adjusted out. I got my ShoBud and it sounds much better to my ears. But I guess its to each his own.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 22 Apr 2015 1:17 pm

Craig Baker wrote:The thing that jumped out at me is: He said the MSA sounds "thin". Of all the guitars out there, I can't imagine an MSA sounding thin. My MSA, and most of the ones I've ever heard sounded anything but thin.

Craig

I used both a maple/lacquer and a dieboard/mica MSA classic for about 25 years before I upgraded to the Millie. The maple/lacquer had a noticeably warmer and richer tone. The dieboard/mica was thinner, but also brighter and had more twang.

This might be because they had different pickups. The maple/lacquer guitar had a George L 5 position pickup. The other had been retrofitted with the Sierra modular system, and I alternated between a George L humbucker, I forget which one, and a Truetone.

Ken, if your guitar is one of the dieboard/mica ones, the best thing to do might be to replace the pickup, even if it requires routing out the pickup well.

You can tell whether you have a mica or maple by looking at the pickup well. On the dieboard/mica models, the neck extends all the way to the pickup. The maple ones have an aluminum frame around the well.

You can see the difference on the pictures posted here:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... hlight=msa

Ken Greene · Post by **Ken Greene** » 22 Apr 2015 4:10 pm

Checking my post, after work today.
I want to thank everyone for all the responses; it's greatly appreciated. This forum seems to be a pretty nice community.

I can give some more background info, since that was suggested in order to be more helpful. I have played guitar full-time professionally some years ago, so I do understand basics of amps, tone, pedals, etc. I have a bunch of amps around here, but most are fairly old, tube type. In my practice room, I have an Egnater Rebel 20 head thru a 1x12" Boogie cabinet. Good quality cables, etc.
The MSA is a white mica over what looks to be birch ply, and the pickup is a single coil type.

I have indeed had a couple very good players over here, to give me a few pointers, and help set up the guitar; the sound of the guitar is better with better technique, but the basic character remains the same, as you would probably expect.

From the wealth of info, just in the above posts, here is what my instincts are telling me:
Time and practice to improve my technique is probably something I will need to be patient with, and learn to get the sound out of my hands. Sounds like that book on right hand technique might be a good idea. That's #1.
I have adjusted the amp from my 6 string guitar settings, to dial out some high end, and beef up the lows and low mids. It seems to help.
Regarding the vol/tone on the MSA... I have been dialing the tone control down, and I have not started using a volume pedal - figured I would wait until I get some control over the basics first.
Most of my amps do not have reverb, but I have a good pedal, and that seems to help a bit. But I've always been used to practicing my instrument with a dry signal, just so my technique is clear, after all it is practice. In performance or jamming, I can see how the reverb or a touch of delay might be nice.
Someone used the term "twangy" and actually that is a fairly good description of what I hear from this MSA. I play a Tele and a 335, so I'd say the MSA is more like the Tele in character. Not a bad thing, but I also want to have that big juicy tone, when I want it.
So much to learn.... but this instrument is just amazing. Can't believe I didn't try it years ago.

Once again, thank you so much to all, for taking the time to respond, and generously share your experience and wisdom. It is very much appreciated!

Ken

Ken Greene · Post by **Ken Greene** » 22 Apr 2015 4:12 pm

Here is a picture of my rig.