Tuning E9 down 1/2 step -- any potential problems?

Dustin Rhodes · Post by **Dustin Rhodes** » 16 Mar 2015 8:51 am

Charlie McDonald wrote:Stringed instruments are designed with a standard pitch in mind; scaling is the length and gauge of string.
Ideally, the instrument should sit there; tuning it up and down destabilizes the instrument and thus the tuning.

However, if play with an unstable guitarist, what does it matter?

Was your first comment just a set up for the joke or were you trying to make a real point? Having played bass and standard guitar for a long time there is really no "destabilizing" the instrument by retuning. If you drop a 6 string down a full step you probably need a set up but its not as if you can't tune down without certain concessions. I mean if your point were true then how is it that 6 string guitars are made in various scales from 25.5" all the way down to 23" to be played in E?

Donald Moxley · Post by **Donald Moxley** » 16 Mar 2015 11:34 am

Thanks for your replies on this subject -- the reason was mainly for vocal purposes - by the way the singer already has a fine bass voice - but also for the 6 string guitar resonance that I believe is enhanced by less tension on the strings.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 16 Mar 2015 1:33 pm

Bless you, Charlie McDonald! - you've solved a mystery. I've been learning Poco's "Just For Me And You" and couldn't understand why it was in such a funny key.

Your reward is to be assured that there is indeed such a thing as an A clarinet. I used to own one. I didn't use it much, as most of the time it's less trouble to transpose on the B flat than swap to a cold instrument. The difference in sound is less than the difference between two different players.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 17 Mar 2015 6:21 am

Charlie, we tuned down on the Yoakam tours so Dwight wouldn't blow his voice out. No other reason than that, really.

Paul Hoaglin · Post by **Paul Hoaglin** » 17 Mar 2015 11:58 am

Ian Rae wrote:Bless you, Charlie McDonald! - you've solved a mystery. I've been learning Poco's "Just For Me And You" and couldn't understand why it was in such a funny key.

Your reward is to be assured that there is indeed such a thing as an A clarinet. I used to own one. I didn't use it much, as most of the time it's less trouble to transpose on the B flat than swap to a cold instrument. The difference in sound is less than the difference between two different players.

Regarding Poco, they didn't have a keyboard player in their formative years, but they tuned to Eb from the get-go. My assumption (potentially making a you-know-what out of you and me) is that, with their vocal harmonies being impossibly high, especially with Randy Meisner in the first edition of the band (although Richie could certainly keep up with Randy - literally), it may have helped them out a little bit. Either way, I can't hit those notes in E, Eb, D, or Db! And I used to be (in my ill-begotten youth) known as the "high harmonist" in the bands I was in....

J. David Carrera · Post by **J. David Carrera** » 17 Mar 2015 5:19 pm

Ive been tuning down to Eb9 for a few months now. No plans to go back to E9. I started doing it because I play so many songs in E and A and I don't like lifting the bar. It's also solved my string breaking problem and the tone is really nice.

It'll give you a headache when you're transposing while reading charts though.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 17 Mar 2015 5:24 pm

Did a cd for Tommy Sche'. Tuned my Kline down to D. No problems at all.

Emmett Roch · Post by **Emmett Roch** » 17 Mar 2015 7:16 pm

I toured for a year with a singer who tuned down to Eb, so I did the same. Only a couple of minor adjustments were needed on levers and pedals, and I saved a little money on .011's (since I never broke a 3rd during the whole gig). And I didn't mind the barely noticable change in tone.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 17 Mar 2015 7:48 pm

J David, that's why number charts rule.
And you're right onâ€¦ if I had to play a bunch of tunes in E and A, I'd tune down, too, so I could have a bar position down there on the first fret.
(Just imagine if Blue Jade was in Eâ€¦)

Actuallyâ€¦ the chart thing is only a perk of using numbersâ€¦being able to hear the changes is the real reason to go numbers. But that's for another thread.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 18 Mar 2015 5:24 am

Thank you Ian for the reward! It's a fair trade. Thanks to others for hipping me about a common practice that may have its reasons;
I see that for many players my point may be moot; road-tested musicians seem to say that it's nothing insurmountable.

Dustin, my intent was sincere; I could have kept the joke, although I thought that was the original topic,
a six-string guitarist wanting a ten-string guitarist to tune down.

I mean if your point were true then how is it that 6 string guitars are made in various scales from 25.5" all the way down to 23" to be played in E?

Scaling is not only string length but tension and guage. Earnest points out:

I think you would really prefer thicker strings when you use a lower tuning.

Every instrument is designed with pitch in mind.
A steel guitar can't sound its best with slack strings, and one would definitely feel the difference in the bar.
I can't think of a situation where a player would want to sacrifice that, unless it was permanent or life-changing.
The only solution I can imagine is to have a D-10 with one neck tuned down.

My main concern, as with the red box, is looking at one key on the guitar as you play and hearing it in another.
The stability of the musician as an instrument is as important as the stability of guitar tuning.

My bass is my handy pitch reference. It's stable, it never gets tuned. I think the same thing for my ears,
having them be used to a G sounding like a G.

I can see why one would change keys for the vocalist. I imagine Meisner and Furay's voices, like Yoakam's,
age like mine and would need to be conserved.

Once, a cantor came to town to sing at the synagogue. I met him there so he could sing me the A he wanted,
several Hz flat. I guess that's the only way he could sing on key. Maybe it was for the resonance of his voice.
I broke an agraffe (heavy-duty string tree) detuning it. I'm sure it took a while to stabilize after retuning. Most likely it was left flat.
You hear a lot of irrelevant stories from piano tuners. I'll try to be more careful in future.

Thanks for your indulgence.
But it is for certain, the way to keep a piano or a bass in tune is to tune it as little as possible.

I realize that basses and pianos aren't steel guitars, just extreme examples of stringed instruments, following the same principles.
I mean, imagine a capo for a piano!

Dustin Rhodes · Post by **Dustin Rhodes** » 23 Mar 2015 6:02 am

I hope I didn't come off harsh with my joke question. I was really just asking if you were only making a joke. I guess being a bass and 6 string player first I'm just used to using all manner of scale lengths, string gauges, and even tunings. A twist the truss rod or adjusting intonation is just part of the game.