Ya gotta see these nut adjusters!

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

After the last thread about "gauged nut rollers", I received a very nice letter from a fellow forumite; Herb Brasher. In it he included a photo (below) that showed how he had created individual adjustable nuts for his lap steel.

At first I could not figure out how it worked. So I sent him an email, then he sent me another photo and a hand drawing of how it was done. I have included all three below. Before you look at them, please note, he is not presently using nut rollers. But that is easily changed which he is in the process of doing on his MCI PSG.

Also, because of reflections in the photos from the highly polished aluminum keystock, things are NOT as they may first appear to you. Upon closer examination of the 2nd two pictures you can see how it works. And how clever and unique it is.

I applaud Herb for his engineering and creative skills. Note how he made a beautiful stairstep key head. All this was done with a drill press, files and sand paper.

That is what I call a genious. My sincerest thanks to Herb for taking the time to send the email and pictures. Herb, it is GREAT!

carl

David Doggett · Posted 13 May 2004 9:51 am

That's brilliant. Other than rollers, the only improvement I might suggest is a ledge coming out from the bottom of the key head up under the allen screws, or maybe just a metal plate attached to the body up under the screws. That would seat the screws against something more durable than wood or formica. Wait, I just saw in the drawing that he has an aluminum plate between the neck and body. That would take care of the problem, but introduce the problems of temperature sensitive metal in the body of the guitar. My idea would work for any kind of body.

Herb should patent his design and license it to steel guitar makers.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 13 May 2004 at 10:55 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Yes Donald.

Incidently I suggested he imbed a small piece of stainless steel for the bottom of the adjusting screws to push against. He is very open to ideas and a very nice person I might add.

I can't get over the quality work he does with just hand tools and a drill press. He said he is purchasing a small lathe and milling machine. One can only imagine how good it will be when he makes things using them. He said he is not considering building them for others, but a patent is a good idea I agree.

Sadly, patents on PSG's have seldom been honored in the past. I was told by Ron Lashley Sr that patent infringement suits are soo expensive that it is not worth the cost in most cases.

carl

William Peters · From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA

Carl,

I don't think rollers per se are actually necessary, IF the nut is free to move back and forth a millimeter or two.

If you took Herbs design, and just left the nut fingers move back and forth, it would self adjust to center when you played it, and the movement would be so slight that you wouldn't even notice.

I remember the thread about the changer in the Anapeg that actually moves back and forth. This would be the equivalent at the nut.

BIll
htt://www.wgpeters.com

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Interesting point Bill,

One of the things Herb and I discussed was the need to keep the sustain and overtones the guitar naturally had. This of course is a prime requisite when messing with a nut or changer/bridge. Particularly on a PSG.

I agree with Herb that the shaft that moves up and down in the drilled hole in the key stock, should be a very close fit. This to maintain the above. If this theory is true, (not sure), then rollers would be necessary.

I am very intrigued with Herb's design. I believe it is very clever and nothing like I have seen anywhere before. I again applaud him for coming up with this. I hope it finds favor amongst steel players which then will make builders take note.

IF this, or any other device, becomes a reality, it will solve IMO, the most frustrating thing I know of on the steel guitar. And it should have been solved long ago.

carl

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Looks again like someone ignored all the pessimists who volunteer all the reasons "why it can't be done...". Absolutely Remarkable.
The only people that make any money on patents now are the Patent attorneys, so forget that route.

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 13 May 2004 at 02:03 PM.]

William Peters · From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA

Carl,

Of course it would have to be tried out, but I bet in a blindfold test you couldn't tell the difference from the timbre or sustain.

The strings behind the bar should not be vibrating. Any energy that gets pumped into the strings behind the bar from the guitar body is lost into your left hand fingers, and decreases sustain. The only problem may be playing open strings.

But hey, it would be worth a shot to have such a veratile system.

Bill http://www.wgpeters.com

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Carl,
As per my post in a previous thread, not exzakly what I had in mind, but reeeeal close.The indivual segments have plenty of room for rollers. If this is what he does with just a drill press and hand tools put Herb in a class machine shop..WOW, he could really do some fantastic work. My hat's off to him.

Bill

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007725.html

[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 13 May 2004 at 03:19 PM.]

Roy Thomson · From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada

Carl, help me out on this.
When the screw is tightened to raise the post
( and I know it will be ever so slight )is it going to go perfectly straight up? Seems to me it is possible the downward pressure of the string could tilt it forward.There is no support DIRECTLY under the post where the string makes contact.
Sorry to be so dense on this.
I like the concept and agree it is long past due. I would like to have such a set up on all my guitars.

Roy

------------------
http://www.houstonsteelman.com/RoyT/

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Roy,

Not sure I completely understand you. But let me add some detail which is not evident in the hand drawn diagram. And maybe it will answer your question.

There are actually 3 different pieces that make up the adjuster, (excluding the allen screw). They are:

1. The string seat (top piece)

2. A round 3/16" SS rod (the middle piece which is the piece that goes thru the drilled holes in the nut support ass'y).

3. The shoe (the bottom piece) which has the allen screw threaded into it.

The (top) string seat is drilled for a snug fit onto the rod. The Shoe is drilled and tapped for the rod. The rod is threaded into it and then permanent type locktite is used to make them become as one unit.

The shoe and rod are then inserted into the hole in the nut support ass'y and then the string seat is attached with epoxy to the protruding rod.

Note: Herb advises that in the future he will weld the shoe and rod together. Also, one very important bit of imformation. When Herb drew the shoe piece, he cut it off flush with the right side of the rod. This is not how it is. The shoe extends on further to allow a drilled and tapped hole for the rod to screw into.

Finally, nothing should move in theory but the rod and that movement is straight up or straight down as the allen screw is adjusted. Of course there has to be some play in the hole that the adjuster goes up and down in. But this clearance need NOT be very much. A snug fit is desirable here.

Since there is NO turning of the rod; and since the string's tension adds considerable downward force, it should act for all practical purposes, as ONE unit. IE, the 3 piece adjuster AND the nut support ass'y act as one complete unit just as we use today.

I recommend the entire adjuster be made of stainless steel. Albeit with a top piece that is a YOKE (instead of a string seat) to support a V grooveed aluminum nut roller. Not only would it be very strong indeed, but it is my understanding that the coeficient of expansion of SS is much less than that of aluminum.

Hope this helps dear friend,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 13 May 2004 at 04:56 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Roy,

Been thinking about what you asked. I now believe I understand your question.

Assuming I do understand, here is my perception. Since the SS rod is captive in the drilled hole in the nut support ass'y; and since it is a snug fit; for all practical purposes the rod can only move up and down.

I can see questions about the "offset" of where the allen screw bears down versus where the string bears down. Ideally this force would be in a straight line. But consider this. IF it was, about the only way I know of to adjust it, would be from an allen screw under the bottom of the guitar. Yikes!

So from this, I feel the luxury of being able to adjust it from the top, makes this a much superior method; even though not perfect from a strictly engineering point of view.

carl

Roy Thomson · From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada

I did not explain myself too well Carl but in your second response you figured out my
concern. I thought about under the guitar too BTW. Not a desirable option.
I would still like to see something under the "heel" of that post after the level plane is accomplished to make sure it is rock solid.
Thanks ever so much for your time.
Roy

------------------
http://www.houstonsteelman.com/RoyT/

Dave Van Allen · From: Souderton, PA , US , Earth

Carl... it looks like your dream of planar string tops is close to reality... I am so happy for you! I know how important this concept has been to you. Looks like it can finally happen.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Thanks Dave,

I just received another email from Herb. He is not up to speed on "computers" as of yet. But he has read your responses and he is indeed humbled by them. He wrote, "If it was not for my computer nerd son, I couldn't do what I've don so far". He said to tell you folks that he appreciates your thoughts.

Also, he is addressing Roy's concern. From the looks of things this kind gentleman has found a simple cure for a long standing problem.

While showering this morning, I thought of something that will embellish it even more I believe. If the string "seat" were not epoxied to the rod; and just held on by the tension of the strings, the player could replace them anytime he wished. Having a dozen or so spare ones would be great IMO.

Incidently, all the rollers would only need a very slight V groove. This in itself would be better than having deep grooves with sharp edges on some of them as happens often today.

This would be particularly good for lap steels where a roller would not be needed. If you think about how the strings on lap steels have always "grooved" out those slots over time, this would really be an improvement. Especially the bass strings.

Just imagine, ya decide to change the gauge of a given string or strings, and it rattles or causes other strings to rattle; and a quick turn of that allen screw and whamo, no more rattle. I love it

Herb ya done good son

carl

William Peters · From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA

Carl,

If you are not going to weld or otherwise permanently fasten the string seat (your nomenclature) to the vertical post, why not make the top of the post a sharp chisel edge, and then make a v shaped cut in the seat. Then the seat can wobble back and forth provide the effect of a roller as per my previous post. It would be a simple way of doing the task.

Bill http://www.wgpeters.com

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Bill,

I may have confused you. The seat (or roller yoke) would still have a hole drilled in the underside for the rod to slide into. It would also be a tight fit. Just no epoxy.

So in essence no "play". Also the rod in the hole of the housing would be quite snug. I find anything other than a roller to be a "con" when it comes to the seat.

Maybe I am missing something. On a keyless, there is probably less need to have rollers (except while changing strings). But on a keyed instrument, what with the hysterisis problem, I favor a roller in all cases. But then again who knows until it is tried.

Your method just might work fine. I am not sure.

Thanks for your input.

carl

Fred Layman · From: Springfield, Missouri USA

I keep waiting for someone to ask my question, but no one has. I'm sure that I'm dense here, but the drawing of the raising device shows only one adjusting screw, but the photos show two rows of screws. What does the second row of screws do?

Also, the adjustment shoe and screws don't appear to be in alignment with the post in the second photo, as the drawing suggests, but appear to be off-set to the right. Is that correct and, if so, why the off-set? The string seat for string one has a post showing, but the shoe and adjustment screw are considerably to the right in the photo.

One other nice design feature is the keyhead itself. Note that it is not a casting or milled from a single piece of aluminum on each side, but has four 3/4" high by 1/2" wide individual pieces, one for each tuning key, each piece attached to the one ahead of it by a socket head screw.

[This message was edited by Fred Layman on 19 May 2004 at 09:56 PM.]

Russ Wever · From: Kansas City

Fred,
The 'second row' of adjusting screw is appearently a reflection in the polished keyhead of the 'actual' row of screws, and they seem to be offest because of the angle that the photo was taken.
~Russ

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

No question, this guy's a MACHINIST!! Beautiful work.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Fred,

Russ is correct about the "reflections". There is only one row of screws. Also the reason for them being "offset" is to keep the string from being directly above the allen screw. This makes it easier to use and allen wrench when adjusting. Very clever I think.

I had the same questions when I received the first photo. This is why he sent me the additional photo and drawing. Since I first received them, I have done a ton of thinking about it. I have come full circle. Except for adding a yoke and roller nut (which he is doing on his MCI PSG) I would NOT change a single thing.

I believe it is engenious; and I again applaud his creativity and simplicity. After 40 yrs of thinking of ways to get an adjustable nut roller, I never dreamed it could be done as simple as he has done it. I can find no problem with it at all. I wish every steel guitar I have ever owned had it.

I agree also with the way he made a complete keyhead out of pieces that appear to be a fully cast unit. I just love it. This man is truly a machinist in the first order of the word, whether or not he was ever a machinist by trade.

May our Lord continue to nurture his awesome talents,

carl

Fred Layman · From: Springfield, Missouri USA

Thanks Russ and Carl. "Cousin weakeyes" sees it now. Carl, you confirmed what I suspected, i.e., that the offset was to provide clearance from the strings.

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