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Topic: Emmons set up versus Day |
Willis Vanderberg
From:
Petoskey Mi
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Posted 5 May 2004 4:38 pm |
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I just wondered how many steelers have changed from the Day set up to Emmons and vice versa ?
I changed about two years ago to the Emmons set up. I like it because most of the tab is written for Emmons. Also most of the " Guests " that we get are playing Emmons set up.( Exception..Roger Rettig ) Now I did find on the Day set up that it was easier to roll my foot to the left on the basic pedals rather than to the right. I am the only one who noticed that ? |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 5 May 2004 5:00 pm
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Tab isn't written for one vs. the other - the pedals are just named in the opposite order (ABC vs. CBA). The A pedal is still the A pedal.
About 20% of E9th players use the Day setup. It's really a matter of comfort more than anything else. Some people just prefer it.
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 5 May 2004 5:43 pm
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My feet like the Day setup, too 
bob
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Bob Tuttle
From:
Republic, MO 65738
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Posted 5 May 2004 7:04 pm
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| Mine too....... |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 5 May 2004 9:04 pm
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Bud-I use to use the Day setup and to me it was more comfortable and the Physical aspect of the Ankle bending the natural way felt so normal.
However, I switched to the Emmons Setup , not because I like it better, but as b0b says most of the guitars are setup that way, so you go with the flo.
Besides that , for me, on a D10 or a S12,I use the 3rd (C)pedal for my 6th neck and get that sound with a knee lever....al
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 6 May 2004 1:12 am
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I played for about 6 months in the Emmons style, then switched to Day. Never wanted to turn back. Actually, I quit playing the Emmons setup because it didn't make me play or sound like Buddy. Of course, I don't sound like Day either.
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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400
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John Davis
From:
Cambridge, U.K.
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Posted 6 May 2004 7:35 am
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| This side of the pond, we have the Emmons set up or the Gordon Huntley set up, Gordons way works good for me,so with all due respect for Mr.Day,you guys can call it what you like. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 6 May 2004 9:11 am
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I'm one of the players who was indirectly influenced by Gordon - my first steel, a ZB, came set up 'Day', as he was the steel-tech at Britain's first PSG dealer. Of course, back then I knew no different anyway - choosing which way 'round to have my pedals was the furthest thing from my mind when I was first confronted with all the difficulties the steel guitar presented!
Having had thirty years to ponder the question I remain convinced that the 'Day' set-up is physiologically more comfortable. I should amend that by saying that leaving the middle pedal depressed and rolling on and off the third pedal (the most over-used pattern in pedal-steeldom?) seems to be an easier move than rolling on and off pedal one.
I suppose that it is only this particular 'move' that is in question - any other combination is just as easy on either set-up. I find it difficult to roll off my 'one' pedal without my knee involuntarily moving to the right - I can roll off 'three' and my knee doesn't move unless I want it to.
I wish, though, that I could feel as comfortable on both set-ups - the chances of me encountering a 'Day' guitar if I'm invited to 'sit in' somewhere are slim in the extreme!
I know I'm in the minority here, and the 'ABC' method doesn't seem to have impeded the majority of our heroes! Still, there's an impressive 'A' list of 'Day' players among them - Weldon, Hal, and Tommy, to name but three..... It just comes down to how you start off, I guess.
Best,
RR
[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 06 May 2004 at 10:16 AM.] |
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joe wright
From:
Jackson, Michigan
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Posted 6 May 2004 9:24 am
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Love this ever lasting discussion about abc or cba...
To truly play the standard three e9th pedals you will need to make both of the movements. You must rock you ankle both ways...one may be easier but learning to play pedal steel or any other instrument is taking something that is not natural and making it so...joe |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 6 May 2004 11:53 am
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A very good point. You are training your body to do something by repetition, and then using it in a logical way.
The logic remains the same which ever way you learn to do it.
I chose Emmons because it made more steels available to just sit down at. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 6 May 2004 12:12 pm
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| Quote: |
| "You must rock you ankle both ways...one may be easier but learning to play pedal steel or any other instrument is taking something that is not natural and making it so...joe" |
Truer words were never spoken. 
carl |
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Buddy Emmons
From:
Hermitage, TN USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 6 May 2004 12:48 pm
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| Through falser teeth. |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 6 May 2004 12:55 pm
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| I think there is probably less tendancy for cabinet drop on a guitar with the Emmons setup cos your AB pedals are further out to the left hand side of the cabinet - but this could also be second hand smoke !!!! |
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Willis Vanderberg
From:
Petoskey Mi
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Posted 7 May 2004 12:31 pm
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Paddy:
Second hand smoke only counts if your under the blanket.. |
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Joerg Hennig
From:
Bavaria, Germany
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Posted 7 May 2004 1:24 pm
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| Quote: |
| You must rock you ankle both ways |
With all respect to Joe W., I know you have explored the potential of the C pedal more than most, but I think it´s safe to say that a whole lot of E9 players mostly, if not always, use it simultaneously with the B pedal so for them the only rocking of the ankle would be from the B to the A pedal and so they choose the setup where that movement feels most comfortable to them.
I have never really played a "Day" setup but I´ve played a "Ralph Mooney" setup which in a way is both since the high G# to A is on one side (that would be like Emmons) and the low one on the other (Day). Really weird. The high one was no problem at all, I just couldn´t feel "at home" with the low one so I eventually dropped it, adapted the Mooney stuff to standard E9 and now I also know the Day setup is not for me.
Edit after b0b´s post:
I meant to say, the way I mostly use the B and C pedals. I set them up so they are at the same level whereas A is a little higher than B and I really don´t rock my ankle as much on B and C as I do on the A and B pedals. I know that there is more to be done on B and C that I haven´t explored yet. But still, if I did, I´d find it more comfortable to rock to the left. That´s just the way it is for me.
Regards, Joe H.[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 13 May 2004 at 12:29 PM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 8 May 2004 8:19 am
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That's simply not true, Joe. You must rock your ankle both ways even if your foot never moves from the two pedals. There are plenty of times when you need to keep B engaged while releasing A, and vice versa.
Thinking that the ankle only rocks in one direction will severely limit your playing.
To me, the big comfort difference is in how far I have to spread my legs for the "home" position. I play the Emmons way, but I've added a pedal to the left of my A pedal and moved the whole pedal array to the right by one crossrod space. That way I get the comfort of Day without putting A to the right of B.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 08 May 2004 at 09:22 AM.] |
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Bob I. Williams
From:
Sun City West, Arizona, USA
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Posted 8 May 2004 9:53 am
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ALL YOU DAY-SETUP PICKERS ARE INVITED TO PLAY MY LDG THIS SUNDAY IN ROCK SPRINGS ARIZ. 4:30. WE'RE GONNA JAM
BOB |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 8 May 2004 10:34 am
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I saw the pedal "Split" the first time at a show that Faron Young headed in Miami in the late 50's (I believe it was). Faron had just released his classic "Country Girl" and this recording featured the first lick I had ever heard utilizing the "split pedal" setup.
When I asked Faron's steel player how he did it, he responded "have you split your pedals yet?" Then he explained it to me.
Like JD, I did not ask him which way he did it. So I ended up like Jimmy set his up after learning what Buddy had done.
For years I used it that way. But as others have said, everybody else's steel was setup the Emmons' way. So I agonizingly switched it. And it took a long time to get used to it. Still to this day (40 yrs later), I often am tempted to switch back. But that is not going to happen.
I truly believe that there IS a definite "standard" emerging; and in the not too distant future the JD setup will be rare indeed. In my on case on the universal, I have NO choice since LKR must lower my E's (to make my copedent work), this requires the Emmons' setup.
As to whether it is easier to rock from left to right or right to left, I am not sure. But I believe it is easier left to right. Since most of my rocking is B down and then rock over onto A, the JD setup would be easier for me. But life does not always permit the easiest way.
So it is Emmons setup for me for good But I still sometimes envy players like Hal Rugg, John Hughey, Weldon Myrick as well as others who use the JD setup.
carl |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 8 May 2004 11:19 am
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It's never going to 'rare' in MY house !
I feel like I'm in some pretty good company....
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 8 May 2004 12:46 pm
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Like I said earlier, I switched only 6 months into my pedal playing career. This was following the advice of a local steeler who also worked on my ZB's. had I chosen to stay with the Emmons setup, I would probably find it very easy to play. Thousands do it the Emmons way, so it can't be all that bad. I don't forsee extinction of the Day setup, but agree that most will play the Emmons (backwards) way. As far as sitting in on others guitars that have the Emmons setup, I just don't do it (much) and sit back and listen to the man (or woman) who is there to play. After all, that is why I went there in the first place. If I know I have a chance of sitting in with the band, I take my own guitar, volume pedal and seat (and of course my bar and picks).
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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400
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Marty Letz
From:
Iowa City, Iowa, USA
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Posted 9 May 2004 3:34 am
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| I have always played a Day setup, and when I went to a U12 I just stayed the same. I lower my 1's with a RKR to kick in the 6th, as I have always done this anyway it was a easy switch. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 9 May 2004 4:01 am
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| Well, if your steel is set up Emmons (mine) and your teacher's is set up Day (Mike Bagwell), then it's like looking in a mirror when you're learning stuff! |
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Harold Parris
From:
Piedmont, Alabama USA
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Posted 12 May 2004 6:21 pm
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I started out on the Emmons copedant but on advice of a very good steel playing friend I changed over to the day setup. Thinking back on it I played some things better on the Emmons setup and some on the Day setup. I guess it all relates directly to the "mechanics" of one's body. I am getting to the age where I could change copedents every day and it wouldn't really matter cause I wake up in a new world every morning!! That makes it difficult to play with either setup because I have that ailment called "C..R..S"!
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Sierra Session and MSA Classic Guitars, Nashville 400, Session 400, and Evans FET 500 HiVolt, and Gretsch Nashville Pro Steel Amps, Keith Hilton Digital Sustain pedal and Digital Sustain Box .
Harold Parris email hparris9@aol.com
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William Steward
From:
Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands
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Posted 12 May 2004 7:43 pm
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| As a remote video student of Joe Wright's I would have to agree with him without being able to comment on the ergonomic issue. I was having trouble with a clean B-A-B squeeze on my standard Emmons setup. His lesson on foot technique really gets into some ankle yoga exercises and even ankle weights for training. I realized from that lesson cowboy boots were not for me and switched shoes to a light weight low cut sneaker which made all the difference and am having less trouble now.....just a question of identifying the basic technique problem and correcting it! Sometimes pursuing the obvious pays off. |
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Buddy Emmons
From:
Hermitage, TN USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 13 May 2004 3:58 am
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Rocking the ankle wasn’t a big factor until the introduction of knee levers on both sides of the left knee. Once the direction of your knee was confined to the spacing of the levers, you had to bring the ankle into play to make up for the loss of motion. Move your left-right and left-left knee levers up and out of the way and you’ll see that without them one pedal is as easy to push as the other. That’s why before the left knee levers were added, Jimmy Day and I could sit in on anybody’s guitar and play it as if it were ours. Jimmy stayed pretty good at it for a long time, but he was a bigger ham than me, if that’s possible.
After the left levers were added, was playing each other’s guitar uncomfortable? Of course it was because we were used to doing the same thing a different way. But from a difficulty standpoint, it made no difference to us which way we had to rock our ankle.
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