String not returning to pitch - UPDATE

[Richard Sinkler]

On my Carter, string 8 is having issues with returning to true pitch after using the levers that are activating that string. When I lower the string, it comes back flat. When I raise it, it comes back sharp. It's not that noticeable by ear, but on the tuner it is visible. My first thought was the rollers at the nut. I lubed them and they roll just fine. Then I changed strings. I lubed the changer. No string ball ends in the changer. I replaced the return spring. Any ideas?

Well, I have gotten into this problem a little more. Here is what is for sure not the problem.

1. There is about 1/8" slack on both pull rods tor raise and lower.the string.
2. The cross shaft is not dragging or binding. They are lubed at both ends and there is probably 3/16" play from front to back.
3. The brass pull pins look good and not ready to break causing the hook end to sometimes hang up on the bell crank.
4. Nut roller rolls without any hangup. Well lubed.
5. String does not go at an angle between nut and tuning peg.
6> the changer finger returns to the stop. No sign of the finger being partially activated. Can't tell if the stop is worn.
7. The raise finger does not try to activate when I lower the string, and the lower doesn't try to move when I raise the string. Finger is well lubed in between the 2 plates (maybe over lubed), and the oil should also have dribbled down to the where the shaft goes through the changer, as well as the rivots.

Now I need to take the pull rods off, and activate the changer by hand and see if the problem is gone. I'm going to take a spring and cut a couple of loops off and try that too. There is no way that I want to take the changer out. I can actually live with the problem, but would like to get rid of it.

[Lane Gray]

Got slack?

[Richard Sinkler]

Yup. Enough slack. I'm going to tear into it tomorrow. Nothing has changed on the guitar in years. Always use the same gauge strings. I'm scratching my head so much over this that I am going bald.

[Lane Gray]

Is the finger coming back to the stop bar?

[Edward Rhea]

I had a similar problem develop, the last time I changed strings. Turned out to be a tiny burr on the roller.

[Bill Moore]

Rich, I'd say the problem is that you actually don't have enough slack. It would take 3 minutes to add a little travel to both the raise and lower. I believe that would fix it. As a side note, I have a Derby SD10 that I've played for over a year without problems, the other day it began to not return to pitch. A turn of the travel adjustment solved it. If it doesn't correct the problem, just set it back where it was, and proceed to tear it apart.

[Bobby Boggs]

Nothing to add except check for cross bar drag on both offending knee levers. The E's to F is the worst offender I've come across.

b.

[Lane Gray]

I wonder if there's a groove/dent/deformity in the stop bar?

[Mark Nix]

I had a similar issue and found that after 40 years this thing called 'friction' had taken its toll on the some pieces that were touching and grinding on each other and small bits of metal had accumulated and caused it to not return to its normal position. I just took a q tip and some type of lube (can't remember exactly what it was now) and dabbed it around then cleaned up any excess that was on the edges after a few movements. Check any pieces that are touching/rubbing against each other.

Edit for link

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

[Richard Sinkler]

I'll get into later today. There should be no cross bar drag, at least at the ends where they go into the rails at the front and rear of the guitar, as I lube those, and most moving parts in the undercarriage, and have done the lube job last week. I lube at least 2 to 3 times a year. When I lubed the rollers when changing strings last week, I didn't notice any burrs on the roller, and I do check for stuff like that, even on the changer finger. But I will double check again today. I haven't ever noticed any small parts of metal anywhere, and a lot of the rods that travel to the same string's finger have a little plastic (I think it's either teflon or delrin) with a hole for the rod to go through and fits into a bellcrank to try to keep the rods from rubbing. But I don't think there is one on the 8th string, as there is distance between the raise and lower rods that should keep any rubbing from happening. There is plenty of slack on the rods, and nothing has changed under there, so I don't know why the slack would disappear. And, there is definitely no overtuning issue. I have been working on all pull guitars for years, and am pretty good at it, but this one has me baffled. I will go through every suggestion here.

[Oliver Samland]

Richard, just a thought: replacing the spring doesn't necessarily mean that you succesfully increased the tension of the spring. I had the exact same issue on my carter's 8 string a couple years back. While replacing the suspicious spring with a spare one didn't help, cutting off 2 turns of the installed spring did fix the problem. E's are coming back to true pitch ever since. Might be a contender for your list of possible fixes.
Good luck,
Ollie

[Richard Sinkler]

That's a good point, Oliver. I'll give that a try too.

Probably won't get to the guitar today. I have to get a bunch of stuff together and copied for my visit to an attorney tomorrow. What a drag.

[Jerry Roller]

Richard, I had a LeGrande here in my shop about a week ago that was doing the same thing. After checking for all the obvious problems and getting nowhere I removed the return spring and loosened the tuning nuts and working the changer fingers back and forth at both rivots I found that just before the lowering finger completely came back to stop there was a slight friction like it had built up a little corrosion in the finger. I shot some gun oil in the rivots and worked the finger joints back and forth for several minutes and felt it free up. I put it back together and it worked fine.
Jerry

[Bob Carlucci]

From your description, it sounds like friction at some point in the changer finger.. I have seen similar symptoms several times in several steels over the years, and typically it was fixed with some working back and forth and some oil... A few times it required some polishing as the metal surfaces that moved against one another would roughen up a bit.. Some steel wool and some oil did the trick.. Problem is finding WHERE the friction is..
Here's what I would do.. I would isolate the problem by tuning the strings up to pitch, and then removing the pull rods from he changer to the bellcranks.. I would work the changer from underneath and see if the string still returned sharp or flat.. If not, look at bellcranks, rods, and everything that actuates them, and what they might come in contact with.. If it does return sharp or flat with the rods out of the changer, your problem is indeed somewhere in the changer/pull finger.... bob

[Richard Sinkler]

I know the changer finger is well lubed. I use an insulin syringe, and the needle is small enough to get between the plates of the finger without having to separate them by hand. I will try everything all over again. It's not a bad enough problem for me to want to remove the changer.

[Jerry Roller]

Richard, remove the return spring and work the moving parts in the changer to their limits about 100 times and put the spring back on. I believe that will fix it.
Jerry

[Bobby Boggs]

Jerry's idea is a must try in my opinion. I think he's diagnosed your problem.

As for return springs. The way I test to make sure they have enough tension. Or in some cases. Have more than is necessary.

Partially engage the lever or pedal that's lowers the string. Release it very slowly. If it comes back firm against the stop. And holds it's position when the string is raised. The spring is tight enough. This is a more accurate test for the amount of tension needed than to fully engage the pedal or knee lever, then release fast like we most often do while playing.

I know some are thinking. But I never partially engage a knee unless it has a half stop. Me neither. But sometimes we bump knee's we're not using in the heat of battle. This is especially true if you have a lot of knee's and set them close to your legs as I do.

Just my thoughts on spring tension. For the record I don't like stiff knee levers-pedals and set my lower return springs as loose as possible using the above mentioned method. I should mentioned I have adjustable lower return springs as do most modern pedal steels. And that allows for and makes tedious return spring adjustments easy. This is not a dig at Carter. I'm a Carter fan. Do wish they had adjustable return springs.

[Erv Niehaus]

I had a LeGrande II that was hanging up. The changer cross shaft was gummed up. There is a product I bought at a gun shop called "Break Free" and I put some between the changer fingers. That did the trick, I got all kinds of black goo from between the fingers.

[steve takacs]

Richard,
Someone on The Forum mentioned that a string gauge they thought they were using turned out to be incorrectly packaged. Have you changed the string more than once and still have the problem? If so I doubt it is a mispackaged string. Worth a new string try though.
Good luck, Bro,
steve t

[Richard Sinkler]

I've had this problem for a little while now and am on my 3rd set of strings. I am using Live Steel strings, and I don't think it is the string. I'm hoping to get into it this afternoon. I've been dealing with some legal issues all week, and with all that stress, I didn't think I could handle the frustration of working on my guitar.

And as far as the cross shafts, not only are they lubed, but there is close to 1/8" play at both ends, with a nylon or teflon washer, so I doubt it is binding. But I will check everything out. I'm also going to check the brass "dog Bones" (pull pins) to see if they are ready too break. I have seen that and the rod has more play and might be hanging up inside the bell crank.

[Richard Sinkler]

ttt

[Michael Hummel]

Hi Richard:

I have a similar issue with my Sho~Bud now and then. Still haven't solved it, so I'm keen to see how it works out for you. I don't have a suggestion.

I've followed you for a while and seen you struggle with some personal issues. The last 6 months or so things have seemed much better for you, so I hope this recent struggle doesn't set you back too much. It's been great to see you doing so well. Keep the faith!

Cheers,
Mike

[Tony Glassman]

I had a LeGrande II that was hanging up. The changer cross shaft was gummed up. There is a product I bought at a gun shop called "Break Free" and I put some between the changer fingers. That did the trick, I got all kinds of black goo from between the fingers.

Yep. I used "Break-Free" on my LGII with the same results. It saved me from doing a tear-down.

[Donny Hinson]

Is the string pulling straight from the peg to the nut, or at an angle? If it's pulling at an angle, you'll likely get hysteresis on both the raise and lower.

Keep in mind that a few cents deviation, while easily visible on a tuner, shouldn't affect playability at all. Remember, there are problems, and then there are problems worth worrying about. Ignore the former, and address the latter.

[Richard Sinkler]

Hi Richard:

I have a similar issue with my Sho~Bud now and then. Still haven't solved it, so I'm keen to see how it works out for you. I don't have a suggestion.

I've followed you for a while and seen you struggle with some personal issues. The last 6 months or so things have seemed much better for you, so I hope this recent struggle doesn't set you back too much. It's been great to see you doing so well. Keep the faith!

Cheers,
Mike

Actually, there is a lot going on with me. I facing the legal crap from a DUI I got in 2013. Can't afford the fines and the breathalyzer they want put in my truck so the ignition won't work. I did quit drinking though.

The carpal tunnel and other nerve damage in my right arm is making it real hard to play. Surgery is probably the next step as physical therapy is doing nothing. At 60 years old, that may be the time to retire from playing.