Need advice from ZB guys!

[Bob Carlucci]

I have a tentative deal on a little sweetheart Scranton S10 3+3,, Been looking for a long while..
Anyway I have some questions and perhaps some owners could help...
I was told by a very good ZB guy that its difficult to switch knees around on a ZB steel.. In other words, if the E's are on the left, switching them to the right is very difficult, especially if you went from say LkL to RKR.. Is this true?..
Also, will I EVER be able to dig up additional pull parts, such as a lever or pedal??.. If they aren't original thats fine, just something that will work without major disfigurement..

Also, is the changer similar to a "modern" 2 up 2 down??.. In other words, is it at all feasible to take the entire pull system out, leave the changer in, and then use a lighter more modern system???.. I am going to buy this sweet little thing, but would really like to make it an everyday player with at least 4+4, that plays reasonably well.. ANY help from ZB owners, or those that know them well, would be greatly appreciated.. Thanks for the wonderful help, guidance,and information I know is forthcoming...bob

[richard burton]

ZB changers are unlike modern changers in that the tuning screws bottom out on the endplate, and don't rely on accurate pedal/lever stops to get tuning repeatability.

That's why the underside of a ZB resembles a train wreck, as the pull mechanism is incidental to the tuning accuracy of the instrument.

They're not 4 up and 4 down, just 2 x 2

[Richard Sinkler]

I believe they can be 4 up 4 down. When I had my 2 ZB's, you were able to put 2 rods into each "keyhole" in the changer lever. The 2 B to C# pulls on string 5 were like that. I had 3 pulls on string 4 of my C6 neck. Again, 2 rods in the same keyhole. Not sure it's technically 4 up/4 down, but 4 pulls per string is possible.

[Tony Glassman]

Difficult = yes
impossible = no

IMO, ZBs are the only major brand more difficult to work on than an Emmons P/P. The P/P system is easy to understand and visualize but you usually have to remove things (especially w/ lowers) to install new changes.

The ZB yoke system, used to effect & balance changes on the same pedal/lever, takes a certain amount of trial and error to get correct. Also, getting to the E9th pedals change hardware is really difficult, as the pull-rod yokes are on the underside of the cross-bar (or whatever you call the plate that is the equivalent to a cross-shaft on most other guitars).

That said, I've seen guys like Greg Lasser, beautifully set up a ZB to any specs, but changing around a ZB is not for the inexperienced or faint-of-heart.

[Richard Sinkler]

Greg worked on my first S10. He added 3 more knee levers and talked me into switching to the Day setup. Those turnbuckles that are on the rods nearly put me in a Psych hospital getting shock therapy.

[Rick Abbott]

I have to ask, for the sake of clarity,if Bob means 4 pedals and 4 knee levers, not 4-raise 4-lowers on the changer?

Is this true?

[Richard Sinkler]

That is what Bob meant. We just got side tracked.

[Bill Ford]

Difficult = yes
impossible = no

IMO, ZBs are the only major brand more difficult to work on than an Emmons P/P. The P/P system is easy to understand and visualize but you usually have to remove things (especially w/ lowers) to install new changes.

The ZB yoke system, used to effect & balance changes on the same pedal/lever, takes a certain amount of trial and error to get correct. Also, getting to the E9th pedals change hardware is really difficult, as the pull-rod yokes are on the underside of the cross-bar (or whatever you call the plate that is the equivalent to a cross-shaft on most other guitars).

That said, I've seen guys like Greg Lasser, beautifully set up a ZB to any specs, but changing around a ZB is not for the inexperienced or faint-of-heart.

The first generation MSA had basically the same type setup..(had one)A total nightmare to change setup, but stayed in tune forever. Bill

[Tracy Sheehan]

A ZB Is no more difficult to work on if you understand how they are set up. I helped some ZB players set up or change them over.
I also did some work on Jim Murphy's ZB several years ago. They were my favorite steel and the only reason I changed brands was they only had a single raise and lower. When I worked on Jims ZB I did not think to look to see if they had gone to multi raise and lower.
When I worked as MSA back in the 70s I had a ZB and Reece had me bring it in and asked if I was playing any where. I was not at the time, laughed and said it would be funny working here at MSA and playing a ZB. Reece laughed right back and said he would give me a MSA. I went back on the road before this took place. I just could not stand at that milling machine 10 hours a day.LOL

Reece,And I stayed friends until he passed on. Stayed friends with Bud Carter also. In fact I bought a couple of his steels. Was sorry about John Fabians passing and later Reece.
Tracy

[Bob Carlucci]

Is the changer double raise and lower, or single raise and lower??.. I am really confused here... bob

[Tony Glassman]

A ZB Is no more difficult to work on if you understand how they are set up. I helped some ZB players set up or change them over............. When I worked as MSA back in the 70s I had a ZB and Reece had me bring it in and asked if I was playing any where. I was not at the time, laughed and said it would be funny working here at MSA and playing a ZB. Reece laughed right back and said he would give me a MSA. I went back on the road before this took place.

I still think working on the ZBs is much more difficult than working on push pulls. That aside, I had an experience similar to yours. When I worked at Sierra I was playing an Emmons. I think that always bothered Don Christiansen.

[B. Greg Jones]

Most of the ZB changers are double raise and lower. Some early examples from the 60's were triple raise and lower. The very 1st ones were only single.

Greg

[Tracy Sheehan]

Got my first new ZB in the early 70s. It was single raise and lower. To me it easy because there were no cross rods to pull out and bell cranks. Tracy

[Richard Sinkler]

My first was a 1971 or 72, and my second was a mid/late 70's. Both allowed for two rods in each keyhole cutout in the changer lever, and indeed had 2 in some as I stated above. You put one in from each side of the lever. On both those guitars, I also had three raises on the E string. Two pulls to F# and one to F.

[Kevin Hatton]

70's ZB's were double raise double lower, not single.

[David Griffin]

Zane Beck was a genius. Ask anyone that knew him. Met him when I did a few sessions @ a place called "John's Studio" in Russellville, Arkansas in the early 90s. That yoke system was great,until you wanted to change it. That's why I'm pretty sure(@ least while Zane was associated w/ ZB) 90% of ZB's were custom orders. He told me he never meant for anything else. The closest you can come to the old ZB sound & still be able to change the copedent fairly easily(although it's still kind of a PITA) these days is the old Ruslers. I own one, & they are sweet axes w/ that ZB growl.

[Bob Carlucci]

The one I am considering has only two rows of endplate tuners.. I imagine this indicate single raise/lower?.. It is a 1967 ZB... bob

[Richard Sinkler]

If it's only single raise, how does someone get the two B to C# raises on string 5, and the E to F# and E to F changes on string 4?

[Mike DiAlesandro]

If it's only single raise, how does someone get the two B to C# raises on string 5, and the E to F# and E to F changes on string 4?

I think it would look like this:

[Bill Ford]

ZB changers are unlike modern changers in that the tuning screws bottom out on the endplate, and don't rely on accurate pedal/lever stops to get tuning repeatability.

That's why the underside of a ZB resembles a train wreck, as the pull mechanism is incidental to the tuning accuracy of the instrument.

They're not 4 up and 4 down, just 2 x 2

[Bill C. Buntin]

Bob, Zane Beck was a genius. Both types of ZB with either the flat bar technology or the ones with bell cranks are what I would call "labor intensive", BUT, once you understand how they work, AND how wonderful they sound IF they have been set up and adjusted properly.....Well, I just say that me personally, I would not balk on any ZB custom regardless of how much mechanical reconfiguration was necessary to get it like you want it.

~Bill

[chris ivey]

i don't have a good feeling about it.

[Richard Sinkler]

If it's only single raise, how does someone get the two B to C# raises on string 5, and the E to F# and E to F changes on string 4?

I think it would look like this:

I think that is what is being called the double/double. I,m very familiar with them. I am assuming the single/single has one row of holes for the raises and lowers. I have never seen one that I remember. Maybe they only have one slot in the changer lever. If they only have one row of holes for raises an lowers, they would probably have to do something under the guitar for a string being raised both a whole and half step.

[Bob Carlucci]

After talking to our 2 resident ZB experts, I have decided to not buy this guitar.. In its present state as a 3&3 , and with the knee levers "backwards" from where I have had them for 38+ years, it would be hard to make it an everyday player for a reasonable price.. I was told pedals and pull parts for old 60's ZB's can be very hard to find, and are expensive if you do find them.. The owner told me he would probably sell it to someone that would like it as is, and IMHO, its a nice deal.. Hopefully, someone here on SGF will get a really nice old ZB S10 to love.. There are very few of these around... bob

[Chris Erbacher]

Hi I would like to buy the guitar, can you please send me the contact info at benderbacher@gmail.com? Thank you or if you feel like calling my number is 415-748-1974