Reverse string order?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Apr 2004 8:02 am

We are all used to the fact that the skinny strings are on top, and the fat strings are on the bottom. The notes go up (for the most part) when we strum across them.

Have you ever noticed that it's just the opposite on a harp? A harpist plays his highest notes with his thumb. It's the nature of the instrument - it's strung "backwards" from a steel guitarist's perspective.

Has anyone here ever tried reversing the string order? I'd be interested to hear your experiences and conclusions if you did. Not that I'm going to try it or anything...

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 11 Apr 2004 8:52 am

I've always wondered why, when you see a flight of migratory birds, that one side of the V formation is longer than the other.

Hm.....

EJL

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 11 Apr 2004 9:04 am

I"ve always wondered why......when in a crowded post office and I drop a handful of mail, it never falls "up". Jes' the sam-o-samo.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Apr 2004 9:16 am

I had always thought that since the E9th is a little "inside-out" to start with, that strings 3 and 5 should be swapped. I never tried it, but it just makes sense to me that you should be hitting the highest string of the triad with your thumb. That would make the G# sound closer to that of the other strings, since we would be picking the "skinny wire" with a thicker pick (the thumb pick), and since the thumb pick picks further from the pickup, it would give us a more even tone, and it might take away some of that "whiney" character of the high G# that a lot of people complain about.

Bobby, I'm too old to change, but maybe you or Bill Hankey could give it a try, and report back to the rest of us!

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 11 Apr 2004 9:19 am

was it joe zawinul who had two electronic keyboards -one for each hand- and one was set up to play low to high going from right to left? he'd play both at once-mirror image of each other...

I think BE had the highest chromatic strings at position 9 & 10 at one time, but soon changed it to where they are now...
but totally from hi to low from back to front... it ain't "natural"

[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 11 April 2004 at 10:20 AM.][This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 11 April 2004 at 10:21 AM.]

Jerry Horner · Post by **Jerry Horner** » 11 Apr 2004 9:22 am

Belview is waiting for you B0b.

Jerry

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 11 Apr 2004 10:34 am

Actually there were two guys I remember seeing that played steel lefthanded with upside down strings. One guy - first name Rex - was from Sacramento but was playing in L.A. and appeared at the Palomino frequently in the mid-late 70s.He had a righthanded Fender 400 that he turned around backwards and had the pedal rods come across diagonally to the pedals which were now on the front legs. It looked awkward but he played fine and you couldn't tell much if any difference from the average player with average chops.He also played standard righthanded guitar the same way(lefthanded upside down and backwards).

The other guy I only saw in pictures who was from Austrailia named Norm Bodkin - Same deal only his guitar was a little more modified so it didn't look so makeshift. I guess it's whatever you're used to.

One time as an experiment,I strung up a Tele with the order of string sizes reversed - except I tuned it normally. That is to say you could play all the same normal fingerings,chords and runs only now they would go down instead of up,and so on.To be honest it was pretty cool and I got some good ideas that I later translated back to my normal setup. Next time you are around a lefthanded guitar,tune the A to a B and the B to an A and flip it over and play it righthanded normally and you'll get the idea. -MJ-

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 11 Apr 2004 10:54 am

Mr. Lee, put your hands to your side and slowly walk away from my guitar.

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 11 Apr 2004 5:58 pm

Eric- Regarding the "V" formation. THe lead or alpha birds (strongest) take the # 1 position with the Beta males behind them. When the alpha gets tired he drops to the back where he can rest (with the youngest birds). I heard a birder say that the unbalanced "V" may be caused by compensation for wind direction. I do not know. Imagine the entire formation being a Delta wing airplane, using shape to cut into the wind and provide aerodynamic benefit.

Jack Shults · Post by **Jack Shults** » 11 Apr 2004 6:30 pm

The reason the v-shaped formation is longer on one side is because there are more birds on that side.

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Jack Shults
MSA U-12
Evans Amps
Stereo Steel

Doug Rolfe · Post by **Doug Rolfe** » 11 Apr 2004 6:39 pm

Jack, obviously you have spent thousands, even millions of dollars, in research to find out why one side of the V is longer than the other. Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to clear up this age old mystery.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 12 Apr 2004 12:54 am

Ask the guys on ebay. Most of their pics show the pedal bar on the other side. They must know something we don't.

Carl West · Post by **Carl West** » 12 Apr 2004 5:05 am

bOb, I have enough trouble with the strings in their current position.

Carl West
Emmons LeGrande

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 12 Apr 2004 5:21 am

bob,
The Japanese Koto and the Chinese Gunzheng
are strung in reverse string order to us in the western world.
I'm glad we changed that,,,otherwise there would be no thumbpickers music as we know it
to-day.

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http://www.houstonsteelman.com/RoyT/

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 12 Apr 2004 5:21 am

Donny, if you think you break G# strings now...
think about using your thumb on them all night long.

Interesting post b0b one way or another.

It might be a bit counter intuative for a guitarist, but certainly feasable.
But the same issue about thumbs hammering the light strings real hard.

For harpists, just imagine the contortions of body needed to have the longs strings close to you.
All harpists must be female or wear a jocky cup....

On a zither I have seen the strings done either way.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 12 Apr 2004 5:28 am

I've never done it on steel but in a music store once I picked up an electric guitar which was a left handed model and for fun just started running through scales and licks in right handed fingering and it really wasn't too bad. Sounded weird and all but some of the stuff might have been usable. I wish I could have recorded it. I read somewhere about a rock player who did that on a record but I can't remember who it was....Have a good 'un, JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Ray Rasmussen · Post by **Ray Rasmussen** » 12 Apr 2004 10:32 am

Hey b0b,

Do you have a lot of idle time on your hands letely?

Ray

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Apr 2004 10:56 am

I wouldn't want to change the string order. But I always thought it weird that the scale is numberd from low to high, but the strings are numbered from high to low.

Dulcimer strings run the other way. I thought someone had put the strings on backwards, but looked at the instruction manual and they had the lowest string the furthest away. The harp is definitely strange. I think it is so you can get up under the high strings and get a longer reach. Otherwise, you'd thin they wold want their thumbs on the lower strings.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 12 Apr 2004 5:51 pm

Jack gets the cookie.

Took me the LONGEST time to figure that out...

EJL

Graham Griffith · Post by **Graham Griffith** » 13 Apr 2004 1:19 am

Michael Johnstone's comment about the Australian player Norm Bodkin (now deceased) is interesting and I'll have to check it out. I knew Norm, but was under the impression he played a left hander strung as we would string a right hander (bass to high away from us). Norm could, however, play a right handed guitar as well!!! A local Sydney player, Tommi Grasso, plays left handed but did play right handed for a while.

Graham

Scott Howard · Post by **Scott Howard** » 13 Apr 2004 2:51 am

All kidding aside,it sure would help on bar noise on a 12 string.
I don't think anyone who has already played could get the hang of it without going nuts and hitting a bunch of wrong notes when it would really count.
To me it would be like the Emmons or Day set up. What you start with is what you normally end up with. I tried the Day setup and could not get the hang of it.
A new player could probably learn it that way and it could work.But all tab would have to be redone and everyone would be saying Why not learn like everyone else.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Apr 2004 8:49 pm

Okay, tonight as I was rehearsing with harpist Ellen Teppar, I asked her why harps are strung backwards, with the lowest strings furthest away.

I noticed that her head was on the left side of the harp (from her perspective). So that as she looked at her left hand, it was like playing a keyboard (thumb toward the higer notes). So that seems pretty sensible. But her right hand is like playing a keyboard from underneath (thumb toward the higher notes). So that's a little weird. But, just like on a keyboard, the left hand played the low notes to the left (from where she held her head), and the right hand played the high notes to her right. So that makes sense.

Then she pointed out that because her hands are on opposite sides of the strings, the fingering for scales, arpeggios and chords are identical for the two hands; whereas, on a keyboard the fingering is reversed betweent he hands. And sure enough, as she demonstrated scales and chords, you could see that her right hand could play them an octave higher with the exact same fingers as the left hand. Very cool.

Then it came out that some of her strings are nylon, and some are actual sheep guts. Ewwww!

And a set costs 300 bucks! But she only changes them every two or three years. There are also wire string harps, which are...unh...twangier.

By the way, harp and pedal steel sound really good together. If you're in the area, drop by The Mermaid Inn Friday night and hear for yourself. It'll be Zum and Fender tubes on one side of the room and sheep guts with a John Pearse pickup on the other. And the leader of the group, Tom Gala, is a distant relative of John Pearse, honest. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 13 April 2004 at 09:50 PM.]

Graham Griffith · Post by **Graham Griffith** » 14 Apr 2004 9:24 am

A classical harpist that I met in my job (stage manager) said that, because of the tension, concert harps don't have great longevity and actually warp becoming museum pieces within a decade! Don't know if this is true or not but it figures doesn't it ... the other "consumable" musical instrument is also called a "harp" but costs a lot less.

Graham

Sam White · Post by **Sam White** » 14 Apr 2004 2:47 pm

Bob do you realize that if you put all your steel strings the opposite way you will have to change all you rods for your pedals and Knee levers.Now no one on this thread said a thing about the pedals and Knee levers. That is a lot of work changing them all around.Correct me if I'm wrong.
Sam White

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Apr 2004 6:19 pm

I'd try it on a lap steel first.

Actually, I'm not too inclined to try it at all. I was just wondering if anyone ever has.

Jerry Byrd has his volume pedal wired backwards. I wonder if he gets confused when he drives.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax