Perfect Fifth Interval

Guest · Posted 7 Apr 2004 5:52 pm

As a guitar player, I never really played intervals much. Now that I'm playing steel, I'm discovering how complex intervals can be. I guess it's no news to experienced steel players that the perfect fifth interval sounds bad, but does anybody know why? And are there any other intervals with peculiar qualities?

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Ummmmm. I was under the impression that the perfect 5th sounded good. If you want complex intervals, you might do some research into micro-tonal intervals. The only interval that is less complex than the p5 is the octave. The octave being 2/1 and the p5 being 3/2. The 81/80, also known as the "comma of Dydamus" is much more complex.

Guest · Posted 8 Apr 2004 1:01 am

What sounds good or bad is, of course, a highly subjective matter. At first I thought that there was something wrong with my ear. Then Jeff Newman pointed out in one of his tapes that the perfect fifth is "rude sounding", and that struck me as a good description of what I was hearing.

Guest · Posted 8 Apr 2004 1:36 am

After going back to the steel and playing fifths for awhile, I'm thinking that maybe I was just not playing them in tune. Fifths seem to be particularly sensitive to accuracy in intonation. Certainly, the fifth is a consonant interval, but it seems to me to be weak when compared to 3rds or 4ths. Maybe I'm all wet on this. Feel free to tell me if that's the case.

I found the following description of fifths that might provide some insight:

"While there are a few short passages of fifths within Bartok's 2nd Concerto and Solo Sonata, it is rare to encounter an extended passage of fifths in music. Playing them in tune is often particularly difficult for several reasons: 1) since the fifth is a perfect interval, it sounds bad if it is even slightly out of tune..." The remaining reasons all have to do with violin fingering and are irrelevant to steel guitar.
http://music.cua.edu/html/gatwood/Fifths.html

[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 08 April 2004 at 04:23 AM.]

Robert Porri · From: Windsor, Connecticut, USA

5ths are such a critical element of all music. I do not think of them as dissonant sounding. Play some tritones (basically a b5 interval) or mi2's or Ma2's to hear much more dissonant sounds. I can maybe buy into a description of "rude" but I think more "gutsy" than "rude". I'm used to Rock music also where 5ths are singled out a lot as "power chords". I can agree with the tuning issue. I don't think you're "wet" either, just raising an interesting question.

Bob P.

[This message was edited by Robert Porri on 08 April 2004 at 02:32 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

An unusual twist on the "perfect fifth" sound was mastered by none other than Jerry Byrd years ago. When he invented the C6 tuning, he created (IMO) the greatest tuning ever for the lap steel.

However this tuning is lacking in one major area. That is there is no major triad chord possible in the treble register. So what Jerry did (and still does), is to substitute a fifth, IE playing strings 1 and 3, rather than what we do when we play 1, 2 and 3 on the A6 tuning.

Of course he always plays 3 strings when playing the minor triads.

Interestingly after years of listening to Jerry's flawless and tasteful use of this substitution, it makes the major chord sound wrong to me, now that I can have that chord using pedals on my C6 tuning, while playing many of his classics.

So it once again proves (to me at least) that sound is indeed incredibly subjective and truly in the ear of the beholder.

Incidently, the reason the perfect fifth often sounds "bad" by some; is due to the fact it is missing that all important "third". And thirds are the "identifiying" force behind most all chords; except those that normally do not have it, such as suspendeds.

carl

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Yeah, a fifth just doesn't carry much sonic "information". The fifth, along with its inversion the fourth, has a kind of "eastern" sound to it, and also an ancient quality. If you harmonize a melody in fourhts or fifths, it always sounds like it belongs in Ben Hur.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Stephen,
Are you saying that the perfect 5th just sounds
bad ? What context are you playing it in ? The thing you bumped into about perfect 5ths on the net has to do with the somewhat arcane rules of counterpoint and voice leading. Give me a call if you want me to explain this stuff to you. Its to much to type.

Bob

Guest · Posted 8 Apr 2004 12:14 pm

Thanks, Bob. I'll give you a ring. I didn't mean that it sounds bad (i.e. dissonant) as much as it sounds pale or hollow compared to other intervals. I think Greg and Carl both kind of got at what I was thinking.

Chat later.

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Stephen,
Perhaps it's because when you play the root and fifth alone, it just doesn't define any chord very well. You don't know if it's dominant or not, and you don't know if it's major or minor.
-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

Listen to a tune called "Bag's Groove"
by the late Milt Jackson for 5th intervals.
John Steele can elaberate further on this tune.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Okay, y'all are going to have to help me here. (Please excuse me while I display my own ignorance.) I've been playing music for over 40 years now, and though I know a little bit about music, my technical knowledge base is a pretty weak. Bear with me.

Everyone's talking about a "perfect fifth", and I assume that would be a chord (if I can use that expression) comprised of the first and fifth note in a chord structure, e.g. a "C" and a "G" if we were in the key of "C". I'll be the first to admit I don't understand a lot, but I've been playing these two notes together for a long, long time, and I see nothing wrong (dissonant?) about the combination. They don't sound out-of-tune or "empty" (leastwise, to me), and though they don't accurately define any chord, they still "work" just fine for me. Literally thousands of instrumental songs are filled with this interval, in almost every type of music. So, what am I missing here? Now, maybe if the steel isn't tuned so that it sounds good (instead of relying on what some pocket tuner says), this interval won't sound quite right, but neither would any other interval, either.

George Benson plays a lot of octaves when he runs out of ideas, and no interval could convey less, or sound more "lacking" than just two notes an octave apart! But...it still works, doesn't it?

I don't mean to be disrespectful or smart-aleckey, and I am amazed with the astute elaborations I'm reading, but sometimes I get the feeling that the "technicians" here outnumber the musicians. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I just think it's a lot more fun to play music than it is to analyze it. To me, it's an art...not a science.

Guest · Posted 8 Apr 2004 2:25 pm

When someone tells you that they don't mean to be disrespectful or smart-aleckey, that's a sure sign that they are aware that that's exactly how they are behaving.

So, Donny, technicians vs musicians, is it? And I assume you categorize yourself as the later. Ok, so lets leave the forum to the "musicians" who will gladly identify themselves.

Over and out.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've never thought that the perfect fifth sounds bad. To me, it's the purest harmony in most music.

Parallel fifths, as a strategy for harmonizing, doesn't work very well. That's a well known "rule". But that doesn't mean that the intervals individually sound bad.

It's very common to stack 5ths in modern music. The essense of the "add9" chord is root, fifth, ninth (C G D notes). That's two fifth intervals, one on top of the other.

Stacking fourths gives you a similar effect: C F Bb can be viewed as a C7sus or an Fsus. These wide open intervals are very popular in today's smooth jazz and new age music.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

I think of this stuff more as "number theory" ...

Here is a "Harmonized Key" ...

I IIm IIIm IV V VIm VIIdim ...

The Chords and a couple of their inversions.






 ABC        BCA       CAB








  135        351       513


  246        462       624


  357        573       735


  461        614       146


  572        725       257


  613        136       361


  724        247       472

The intervals within a chord

 





AB BC AC   BC CA BA   CA AB CB








M3 m3 P5   m3 P4 m6   P4 M3 M6


m3 M3 P5   M3 P4 M6   P4 m3 m6


m3 M3 P5   M3 P4 M6   P4 m3 m6


M3 m3 P5   m3 P4 m6   P4 M3 M6


M3 m3 P5   m3 P4 m6   P4 M3 M6


m3 M3 P5   M3 P4 M6   P4 m3 m6


m3 m3 d5   m3 d5 M6   d5 m3 M6

Change is interesting ...

Look at the interplay of the M3 & m3 intervals as well as the M6 & m6 intervals ... as you move through the key ...

Look at the stagnant nature of the P5 & P4 interval ... aside from the d5 sneakin' in there ...

The P5 and P4 are certainly not dissonant ... just a little boring to use as "flowing harmony" in a phrase ... but they do make a dandy place to land/pause.

Just my opinions as a non-pedal "slanter"...

I only have use of my thumb and index finger on my right hand ... so interval playin' is a biggie for me

Please forgive any interval errors in noting them ... I'm sure someone will jump in to make corrections if needed...

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 08 April 2004 at 06:05 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Having a bad day, are we Stephen?

It seems not everyone here agrees with your statement...

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

quote:

I get the feeling that the "technicians" here outnumber the musicians.

Whoa.... that one stung.

Ok Donny, you and me at recess man... Steinways at 30 paces !

-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Ok, I've thought a bit about this, and I've decided we're not all the same wavelength here... maybe I'm the guy on a.m. but...Stephen please forgive me for highjacking your thread to make a speech, but;

This business of intervals. I think Stephen was referring not to the tuning issues related to it, but the quality of the interval. The emotive value of it.
Donny, you mentioned subjective opinions, and that's true enough... and I realize you were sent over here from the "Aw Shucks" delegation of the forum to counsel us young'un theorists about the dangers of learnin'

and we appreciate that, but;

Intervals have personalities, and emotive qualities about them. Sure, you've played 5ths for decades and they sound great. I don't doubt it a bit. Oftentimes you'd be surrounded by other people filling in other vital parts of the progression... 3rds, 7ths, and... well, I hope you're not hangin' around that part of town where they might flatten a ninth or throw in a #11 or anything...

But on their own, different intervals have the power of bringing out different feelings in the listener. Subjective opinions aside, there are commonalities in it.
Stephen said he heard the word "rude" to describe the interval. Well, that's why it's the perfect interval for a rock & roll power chord: 'cause it's rude!

If you close your eyes and have someone play a fast ascending whole-tone scale, and you don't see Bambi walking out of the forest in your mind's eye, or tinkerbell appearing in a puff of pixie dust, it's time to take your pulse.

Anyone, musician, theorist, or not, would immediately transported to the East at the mere suggestion of an in-sen scale. The people who score movie soundtracks have known about this stuff since it's inception.

Who hasn't felt the anger and tension created by the minor 9th interval in Buddy Emmons vicious "boo-wah" chord attacks ?

Why did Coltrane open up so much when McCoy Tyner started playing piano for him ?
Partly because McCoy knew how to stack up fourths (as b0b mentioned) to create wonderful voicings that were open and airy, and breathed under Coltrane's ruminations...

Why do some C6 players who try to play more modern jazz tunes struggle to surmount the dangers of sounding dated ? Because the interval of a 6th defines a whole generation of swingin', jitterbuggin' music that's not necessarily related to more modern forms of jazz.

Etc, etc. I could go on, but you'll be glad to know I have to go shoot some darts.

The bottom line is.. it's good to think about it... and feel it.
Sure, go play... but don't shut off your brain to go and play. This theorist already finished his gig for the night, so.....
[/brain]

Anyway, just some miscellaneous.. and subjective thoughts. Donny, you go back to The Delegation and see what they think about that.

Stephen, keep listening, and thinking... I know I will.
-John

[This message was edited by John Steele on 08 April 2004 at 07:42 PM.]

Kenny Dail · From: Kinston, N.C. R.I.P.

A 5th will only sound as good as the preceding chord/interval and the chord or interval that follows. I Think Don Helms said it best on "Your Cheating Heart." And of course, Jerry Byrd's use of 5ths is music to anyones ears.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

[This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 08 April 2004 at 07:13 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

One thing I get out of theory is that it adds depth to my ability to express myself. If I like how something sounds I try to figure out what I like about it. The opening to Beethoven's 9th is a big pile of perfect 4ths and 5ths. Rather than play the Beethoven riff if I want that sort of musical statement I use his underlying vocabulary to create that feeling within whatever musical context I happen to be in.

Another great use for theory is to take a riff that is working for me and remove as many notes as possible without losing what works about it. I use my ears for the entire process. I use theory to sort out and remember what the heck I did so I can get to it quicker next time. If you want money to play steel concise is the name of the game.

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 08 April 2004 at 09:13 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Harry Williams · From: Duncan, Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Learning musical theory in all it's permutations has increased my love for the beauty and wonder of music. Amongst other things, it really helps to see the commonality and inherent unity in all musical styles from around the world. To use an analogy, learning the names of the spring wildflowers doesn't take away from the sight of a mountainside in bloom.

So Monsieur Steele and company, keep the "tech" talk coming, and Mr. Hinson I do Honor your comments as well!!!

Hope your all enjoying a Happy Easter Weekend...

HW

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Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

when I was a teenager in the sixties,
I learned basic theory from Gord and Paul Fleming. Their father was a jazz pianist in windsor Ontario.
I also learned to think in intervals.
It was the smartest thing I could have done.
It gives me a birdseye view of any song on a grid that works with any idiom.
It also gave me an appreciation for jazz, R&B and standards.
Having said that, no one loves traditional country, bluegrass or western swing more than I.
It also helped me figure out steel guitar quicker than I would have if I hadn't had this knowledge.

[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 09 April 2004 at 11:09 AM.]

[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 09 April 2004 at 11:10 AM.]

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

No Donny, please don't feel insulted.
You can feel teased though.

-John

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