| Author |
Topic: Equal Tempered Tuning |
Gary Cooper
From:
Atmore, Alabama
|
Posted 27 Dec 2014 6:43 am |
|
I have read and "understand" why some players use tempered tuning. However, Buddy has used equal tempered tuning since 1985.
Tempered Tuning
From: Bob Carlson
Date: 06 Mar 2002
Hi Buddy: About six months ago I started just using a tempered tuning and now I wonder why I didn't four years ago. I use the one that came with the Emmons guitar. Do you use a tempered tuning? Thank you Buddy. Bob.
From: Buddy
Date: 07 Mar 2002
I tempered my tuning until 1985. Since then I've been using equal tempered tuning, or as equal as the physics of the guitar will allow.
_________________
GFI Ultra SD-10; Nashville 112; Hilton pedal, George L Cables; Pearse bar; Live Stings;Walker seat by Billy Knowles. |
|
|
|
DG Whitley
|
Posted 27 Dec 2014 11:30 am
|
|
...so am I missing the point? Just because Buddy is using it doesn't mean everyone else will or want to because each player is unique in what they want.
If you have read any of the "tuning war" threads on the forum, you know this an extremely touchy subject that, in my humble opinion, is best left alone after all the previous "wars".
Just my 2 cents, YMMV. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 27 Dec 2014 2:39 pm
|
|
Peace on earth and good will amongst all systems of tuning, please, at this festive time.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
|
Posted 27 Dec 2014 5:03 pm
|
|
OK, I use the "sweetened E9" on my Peterson, but can
someone explain "Equal Tempered Tuning" to me?
Man, I must be outa the loop.
JB
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 27 Dec 2014 5:24 pm
|
|
| John Booth wrote: |
..
someone explain "Equal Tempered Tuning" to me?
|
Google & Wikipedia are your friends in this regard. Be plenty wary of what you read about temperament here on b0b's Forum. |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 27 Dec 2014 6:15 pm
|
|
Use the Search function. The subject has been debated on the Forum so often that there's not much left that hasn't already been said.  |
|
|
|
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
|
Posted 27 Dec 2014 6:28 pm
|
|
Looks like Equal Temperament is just "tune it with a tuner and go" to me.
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
|
|
|
Jim Reynolds
From:
Franklin, Pa 16323
|
Posted 27 Dec 2014 7:30 pm Temper Tuning
|
|
I think the best this has ever been explained, was by Jeff Newman. It is very easy for the average person to understand, with a little understanding of music and the harmonics of each string. There again when you start talking to older player, that have played at 440, (by the way I'm 74)there's no discussion. I don't claim to know everything, but at 440 the guitar IS in tune to itself, BUT out with the rest of the instruments. The steel is the ONLY instrument tuned this way. I have tuned to the tempered tuning for years, and it works great for me, others have tuned at 440 for years and adjust by ear. As said before it is a touchy subject, but as long as it sounds good, JUST PLAY.
_________________
Zum U-12, Carter SDU-12, Zum Encore, Emmons S-10, Emmons D-10, Nashville 400, Two Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100, Ibanez DD700, Almost every Lesson Jeff Newman sold. Washburn Special Edition Guitar, Can never have enough, even at 80. 1963 Original Hofner Bass bought in Germany 1963, and a 1973 Framus Bass also bought in Germany 1974. |
|
|
|
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
|
Posted 28 Dec 2014 4:00 am Re: Temper Tuning
|
|
| Jim Reynolds wrote: |
| I think the best this has ever been explained, was by Jeff Newman. It is very easy for the average person to understand, with a little understanding of music and the harmonics of each string. There again when you start talking to older player, that have played at 440, (by the way I'm 74)there's no discussion. I don't claim to know everything, but at 440 the guitar IS in tune to itself, BUT out with the rest of the instruments. The steel is the ONLY instrument tuned this way. I have tuned to the tempered tuning for years, and it works great for me, others have tuned at 440 for years and adjust by ear. As said before it is a touchy subject, but as long as it sounds good, JUST PLAY. |
Thanks Jim,
Which tempered tuning do you use? Some are just sharper Es, some can get very complicated with practically every string being a few cents this way or that way. But beyond that, the most important thing I think you said is "JUST PLAY". We (I) tend to focus on so much of this stuff I rob myself of valuable time just enjoying and learning my guitar.
Thank you
JB
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
|
|
|
Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
|
Posted 28 Dec 2014 4:24 am
|
|
| Set a tuner on an electric keyboard and see what it reads. Tune to that. |
|
|
|
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 28 Dec 2014 4:38 am
|
|
| John Booth wrote: |
| Looks like Equal Temperament is just "tune it with a tuner and go" to me. |
| Buddy Emmons wrote: |
| ... or as equal as the physics of the guitar will allow. |
Basically, each note of the scale is 100 cents in value, an octave equally divided into twelve parts.
I found it a little strict even for tuning pianos (or 'pianos  ) , as the physics of each instrument is a little different.
(My 'equal' octave is about 1204 cents; makes no sense for pedal steel.)
Thus, we JUST PLAY (not a play on 'just'). |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 28 Dec 2014 1:11 pm
|
|
| John Booth wrote: |
| ...can someone explain "Equal Tempered Tuning" to me?... |
Okay, so, even though it's been talked about many times, I can see that no-one is going to bother to search for those discussions, so here we go again...
Music was originally written in days of yore to be played in one major and one minor key, namely A min. or C. That's why the notes were named A,B,C,D,E,F, and G.
The problem came when people decided that they wanted to play in other keys. What to name the notes? The fact is that the A in the key of C for instance, is not the same note as the A in the key of G. In fact every note is different in every key it's played in. So how could you get over this? An early idea was to fit keyboard instruments with additional strings to allow one to play in a few alternative keys based around C ...G, for instance. But that made the keyboard too cumbersome.
Roll forward a few hundred years and Bach came up with the idea of averaging out the notes, so that they were out-of-tune by the same amount in every key. To demonstrate this he wrote a piece called the "Well-Tempered Clavier" which modulated through all 24 of the major and minor keys.
From then on all keyboard instruments have been tuned to this tuning. It's known as EQUAL TEMPERAMENT.
This is the ONLY MEANING of Equal Temperament. Evening out all the notes so that they play the same amount out-of-tune in every key. It has nothing to do with the steel guitar, except as to how to tune the open strings so that they don't seem too much out-of-tune with all the other instruments which are forced to use equal temperament. The steel guitar is played with a bar, so you're not stuck with the same restrictions as other instruments, such as the guitar or keyboard, but you have to take account of them if you are going to play along, and that's what Buddy was referring to. He's been playing with Equal Temperament his entire career, or he would have been out-of-tune with the rest of the band. His comments were regarding how you originally set up the instrument. Once you start playing you have to use equal temperament.
That having been said, a lot of mediaeval and folk instruments were designed to only play in one key, and to change key they had to retune. That's why the frets on the lute and early guitar were made of gut, and were tied on, so that they could be moved if you decided to change key. If you sing a capello, with no backing, you will automatically revert to natural temperament for whatever key you start to sing in. Tests have been made with opera singers singing with and without backing, and have shown this to be the case. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 28 Dec 2014 1:28 pm
|
|
Alan, some people can train themselves to gravitate away from mathematically sensible tunings. Buddy Emmons has said that JI chords sound funny to him, with flat thirds.
But that's just me playing Devil's advocate. Well explained, sir.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 28 Dec 2014 3:12 pm
|
|
| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| John Booth wrote: |
..
someone explain "Equal Tempered Tuning" to me?
|
Google & Wikipedia are your friends in this regard. Be plenty wary of what you read about temperament here on b0b's Forum. |
Worth saying again. There's a lot of misinformation here, too much to try to correct and nothing worth arguing about.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Michael Hummel
From:
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 28 Dec 2014 4:37 pm
|
|
Find a tuning that works for you and your ear, and/or the band you play with, and go for it!
I'm using Jeff Newman's sweetened tuning, but not sure it works 100%. So in the New Year I'm going to try tuning a bit more towards Equal Temperament to see how that goes.
Every day a new experiment!
Mike
_________________
MSA Classic 5+4
Too many 6-strings and amps to list |
|
|
|
Jim Reynolds
From:
Franklin, Pa 16323
|
Posted 28 Dec 2014 10:35 pm Tuning
|
|
Alan is saying exactly what it is about in a long way around. I tried to put it simple. Playing with a bar and no frets, you can compensate, but everyone wants to be correct, no matter what is brought up. It's like boB said, it's not worth arguing about. As to John: All my string are tuned a little low or a little, I have none at 440. I guess you can say it's Jeff Newmans last tuning chart. Good luck. Thanks boB
_________________
Zum U-12, Carter SDU-12, Zum Encore, Emmons S-10, Emmons D-10, Nashville 400, Two Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100, Ibanez DD700, Almost every Lesson Jeff Newman sold. Washburn Special Edition Guitar, Can never have enough, even at 80. 1963 Original Hofner Bass bought in Germany 1963, and a 1973 Framus Bass also bought in Germany 1974. |
|
|
|
Jim Reynolds
From:
Franklin, Pa 16323
|
Posted 28 Dec 2014 10:41 pm
|
|
John, if you go to Jeffran website, under tuning, you can print out a copy of the tuning. Try it and see if it works for you. Good Luck
_________________
Zum U-12, Carter SDU-12, Zum Encore, Emmons S-10, Emmons D-10, Nashville 400, Two Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100, Ibanez DD700, Almost every Lesson Jeff Newman sold. Washburn Special Edition Guitar, Can never have enough, even at 80. 1963 Original Hofner Bass bought in Germany 1963, and a 1973 Framus Bass also bought in Germany 1974. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 29 Dec 2014 5:42 am
|
|
Or this one (very similar numbers to the Jeff Newman, but it works on all tuners, and Jeff preferred the "hertz" deviations, which only appear on one make of tuner).
http://www.buddyemmons.com/ttchart.htm
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 29 Dec 2014 7:43 am
|
|
| b0b wrote: |
| There's a lot of misinformation here, too much to try to correct and nothing worth arguing about. |
I would like to remain silent, but one thing is driving me crazy and I hope that someone will offer counselling.
I refer to these tuning charts that say "C# 438.5". They clearly don't mean "C# = 438.5". I assume that you set the tuner wrong on purpose to get a flattened end result.
But wouldn't it be better to state the actual frequencies? Then it would be possible to compare the real pitches with other temperaments. For instance, this example (taken from the Jeffran chart) gives a C# of 276.2 Hz, which as we might expect is a compromise between ET (277.2) and JI (275.0).
I suppose these charts are a product of the particular tuners people use and their mode of use.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 29 Dec 2014 8:04 am
|
|
Indeed, Ian. Some models of Boss tuner (but not all) have/had a scale marked in "Hertz", which presumably would tell you what frequency of A note you're playing, or where you'd assume A was in an ET aimed there.
Not only does this scale only appear on some tuners, it's utterly and completely nonsense.
If it weren't for Jeff's considerable prowess as both educator and proselytizer for the steel guitar, this scale would have died out LONG ago. Unfortunately Jeff was highly prone to push his own idiosyncrasies, and this was one of them that just won't freaking die.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 29 Dec 2014 8:45 am
|
|
As you mention, it's not an idiosyncrasy of Jeff's; he didn't invent it. He was just using the indications found on then-common tuners.
And I don't see what the big deal is about it. "438.5" on the meter means "The note is as far flat from its ET frequency as 438.5 is from 440". Cents is more direct, but a chart using the "440" method gets you there the same if you're using a tuner that's marked that way.
I used a Boss TU-12 for years that was marked that way. No biggie.
I sure can't see the practical usefulness of a tuner that would display the actual frequency of the note it hears. Who wants to memorize the actual target frequencies of all the notes on the guitar? |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 29 Dec 2014 9:02 am
|
|
The first inexpensive electronic tuner was a Korg. This was around 1976 or so. The scale on it did not have cents; all it had were Hz numbers for calibration of the A note. Jeff Newman and Tom Bradshaw published pedal steel temperament charts using that scale as a reference. That's why we have steel players saying bizarre things like "I tune my E's to 442 Hz." No electronic tuner shows the actual frequency, so nobody says "I tune my E's to 331.5 Hz", even though that's what they actually tune to.
Virtually all pop musicians today tune to the A=440 Hz standard reference pitch. Some tuners still include the Hz-based calibration scale for orchestras (I guess), and steel players still use it because it's what Jeff and Tom taught.
The "cents" scale is correct way to document temperaments. There are 1200 cents to the octave, and each half-step of the equally tempered scale is exactly 100 cents. Modern electronic tuners show the cents scale. If you want to talk about temperaments with other musicians who don't play pedal steel, use should use cents. Otherwise you sound like an idiot.
If you need to translate one of those old Hz charts, think of it as 1 Hz = 4 cents. So instead of saying "I tune my E's to 442 Hz", say "I tune my E's 8 cents sharp". Then you can argue about it intelligently. 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 29 Dec 2014 10:24 am
|
|
Brint, I wasn't suggesting memorising the pitches, but maybe writing them down (or storing them) instead of the offsets. Here is the Newman B6/E9 chart with the actual pitches calculated from his offsets (one decimal place) and a published list of ET pitches (rounded to two places).
A remarkable thing becomes apparent when you look at the resulting pitch ratios of the various triads. I was expecting it to be a halfway-house between JI & ET - but no! In the open position the open E chord, the pedals-down A, the B with Es lowered, the A/F, the F# on P7, the C# on P5 and the G# on P8 are all - to the limits of accuracy noted above - in the ratio 4:5:6 . So he had worked out offsets on an ET tuner to find his way back to natural intervals - must have taken a while.
So if you like the Newman chart, that's why. You could tune this way by ear, but maybe not on a noisy bandstand.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 29 Dec 2014 11:02 am
|
|
Ian, the values were not calculated, they were observed. Tune the Es to 440; tune by ear; measure deviation from 0 on tuner, write them down.
Mike Auldridge (my teacher at the time) and others noticed that cabinet drop, individual tastes and other variables varied from guitar to guitar. So I was urged to to create my own chart, so I could tune my guitars to suit the guitars and to suit me.
And his early Conn strobotuner (Duffey called it "Mike's TV set") had a "vernier" knob that would adjust in cents, so that you'd set the knob to -17 for the A pedal et c. And it would show the C# as in tune when it was 17 cents flat.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
