how did we arrive at tuning to 442.5

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

I dont want to start a debate about tuning everything to 440 or JI I use JI myself and am happy with it . I just wonder how we arrived at 442.5 It would make sense to me to tune the A to 440 which would put the E around 441.5 I just wonder why 442.5 Im tring to tune to a electic keyboard if anyone is wondering

Jeff

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

WE didn't.
Jeff Newman and perhaps others did.

I tune to about 441, depending on the guitar. I tune out the cabinet drop, tuning the E's to 440 with A&B down. When you release the pedals the E's will go slightly sharp -- usually 4 to 8 cents (441-442). I tune B's to match the E's and go for beatless fifths and octaves.

It's something between straight up ET and Newman's chart which is pretty much beatless, as I recall. I tolerate the beats to get better consistency with different pedal and lever combinations. I tune the thirds as sharp as I can stand them -- about 439. My F's end up about 438 or 437. Works for me.

I can tune to the Newman chart and play ok, but there are some sour combos and the A+F position is way south of the fret. ET is too radical for my ear but something in between is what's best for me.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Larry is correct.

Jeff Newman came up with it, and a number of players use it just as he charted it. He tunes his E's (on E9th) and his C's (on C6) to 442.5. And everything else is pretty much JI with a few exceptions.

According to him, it just puts the bar over the frets when playing in a band. I never gave it a thought, until a player friend of mine was over at my house one day and he said, "carl, do you realize you are playing quite sharp of the frets?"

Upon looking closer, he was correct. All those years, I never noticed it. Then I tried Jeff's 442.5 thing, and sure enough, I started playing right over the frets.

Why?

I have a few theories, but the one I feel is more true, most would not agree with, but for whatever its worth here goes.

It is the "thirds" that are the killers whether we play ET or JI or some where in between. Since some instruments such as regular guitars and pianos "thirds" are sharp of ours (most of us tune JI), it makes us play sharp of the frets, since it is them dang thirds that clash the most.

Also, cabinet drop plays a part. But I don't believe it can all be attributed to it. So the combination of the two seems to make sense to me.

That is my opinion. Until I hear a more plausible explanation, I will hold to it.

carl

A Better Way

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Uhhhhh...sorry folks, I didn't! Maybe I'm alone in this?

jerry wallace · From: Artesia , NM (deceased)

Jeff, I tune the E's to 442 and everything else to them..It pretty much follows the Newman tunings except I figured I could drop the .5 and simplify things..I dont think my ears could hear the .5 hz..

I do this for the very same reason that Carl stated..I noticed when playing with other instruments whether it was guitars, keyboards etc..If I tuned my E's to 440 I had to play with the bar a little ahead of the fret marker to sound in tune with the other instruments..

At the time I had never seen the Newman chart..One night I got tired of playing sharp with the bar so I pulled my E's up a little without the use of a tuner and tuned the rest of the strings to them.. This helped but I still had to play with the bar sharp..So I took the E's up a bit more and retuned the other strings to them..

Now I could play directly over the fret mark and sounded in tune with the rest of the band.
When I got home Later that night I hooked up my tuner and recorded the pitch of all of the strings..I discovered I had about 442 on the E's and so on and so forth..

From that night on I tune the E's to 442..This has always worked for me with many different steels, strings, bars etc.

------------------
Jerry Wallace-2001 Zum: D-10,8+6, "98 Zum: D-10,8+8,Nashville 1000,Session 500 ,Session 400 head only amp,Tubefex,ProfexII, Artesia, New Mexico
http://www.jerrywallacemusic.com

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

.....I can understand tuning a pedal steel guitar sharp to compensate for cabinet drop, but am I hallucinating when I remember reading technical articles that many studios now record at 442 for some reason that I can't recall?

www.genejones.com

Dave Robbins · From: Cottontown, Tnn. USA (deceased)

If you step on the pedals to make open "A" and your not at 440, your non-pedaled open pitch really don't matter.

Dave

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I tune my E's to be at the zero mark with pedals down. Whether that's in tune with A=440 Hz depends on the calibration of my tuner. The E's end up being about 5 cents sharp of the reference when I release the pedals.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
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Jeff Peterson · From: Nashville, TN USA

Interesting..

[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 28 March 2004 at 07:15 AM.]

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

I don't, I tune a hybrid Just, but I can imagine that the reason is to compensate for the "flat" A's and C#'s (open strings) on the A and B pedals.

If I tune my E's straight up to 0 cents 440 then the A's on the B-pedal are around -7 cents and the C#'s on the A-pedal are around -18 cents. So a little "bump" would put them more in tune with the keyboard.

Franklin · Posted 26 Mar 2004 11:49 pm

There is only one A note on the piano tuned to 440. And with each and every octave below that, the A notes continue to decrease their pitch from 440 and with every octave A note above middle A, those A notes increase their pitch sharp to 440. This is called stretch tuning or ET. Each octave is equally out of tune to the next.

The rule followed by most instruments when tuning to a grand piano is to center the root notes of stringed instruments to the octave that is unison to your instruments strings.

The debate is this: "which octave A or E note does the majority of the steel licks we all play blend the best with?" Consider this and/or test it out for yourself. If a Bass were tuned to the notes above middle A it would sound totally sharp and out of tune to the piano because it was tuned to the wrong octave of the piano. The steel is a tenor intrument so why tune to the lower middle A? Violinists choose the higher octaves for intonation as should we. The steel has virtually the same sonic range as a violin.

The next A above middle A on a grand piano is tuned to 882 which is 441. The E note in that octave is unison to our open E. The E note in that octave is also graduating sharp of that octaves "A note" 441.

Tuning instruments to the root note E is the way most tune. 441.5 puts the open E in pretty exact with the grand piano. Since most of what we play is above that octave 442 is a good compromise.

This is the reason I tune my 4th string (E) 442......Paul

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Paul makes perfect sense IMO.

Here is another slant on it. If one concerns themselves with "tuning to a grand piano" AND they tune JI, which note is their reference? Obviously for steel players it would be an E (E9th).

Now since (within a given octave) the piano IS tuned ET. This means the piano's E note is slightly flat of a perfect "5th". IE, not 660; rather 659.2551138

But and a very big "but", the piano's C# is very much sharp to a steel tuned JI. In fact ALMOST 5 full cycles sharp! IE, JI=550; ET=554.365262!!!

Now when we play that JI tuned steel to that ET (within a given octave) tuned piano, you have thirds clashing all night. AND it is the third of the chord which the ear is MOST sensitive to when it averages out notes in a band.

But, IF you tune the root E higher (442.5), you ALSO bring its 3rd higher by an equal amount. The end result is the steel's JI thirds are coming closer to the piano's ET thirds.

It is here where I believe that most of the problem lies. When those thirds are closer (between instruments) it sounds more in tune to the players. EVEN though the roots (and 5ths) are sharp.

Now IF, a steel player tunes ET, then you have an all new ballgame. I also believe this is why the great differences in opinions on this forum. IE, some steel players tune their thirds to straigh JI. A limited few tune them to straight ET.

BUT, and again a very big "but", MOST steel players tune their thirds between JI and ET! But even here it differs widely between players. How many times on this very forum have we seen the following comment,

"I tune my thirds as sharp as my ears can stand them"

Why??????

Think about it.

carl

Perry Hansen · From: Bismarck, N.D.

442.5 with E and C puts me right on the fret and in tune with the Cordavox.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

That's a great explaination, Paul. Thanks!

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Dave Robbins · From: Cottontown, Tnn. USA (deceased)

Considering the uniqueness of the steel guitar and it's built in design flaws, no one tuning system is going to work for every guitar. Period.
You have to consider the amount of cabinet drop "that particular instrument" has or does not have, no matter what brand. If it is prone to "considerable" cabinet drop you are going to be forced to use different tuning numbers than one which is not. There is no way to retain that E to a constant 442 or any other number if as soon as you apply the pedals it drops to something else. Of course,there are always tuning compensators, but even then there are limits as to where and how many.

So which way do you prefer to be closest in tune? Pedals up or pedals down? The numbers are different depending. My guitar has very little cabinet drop,if any, thanks to it's counter force system, so numbers are a lot closer! Still I would prefer to be closest in tune pedals down than pedals up.

Dave

Franklin · Posted 27 Mar 2004 12:07 pm

Here's a brain twister. Can a steel be tuned to true ET? Remember ET or straight up 440 on your tuner requires that each octave graduates sharp from the lowest octave.

So, if I start by tuning the 8th string E note in perfect unison with the piano. I would have to tune the 4th sharp to string 8 because it is the next octave up. That works fine in the open position. Now the next octave E on the piano is tuned sharp to that E. But here's the problem, when I move to fret twelve on string 4 and 8 and bar it perfectly straight across the 12th fret both of my E strings sound flat because my frets did not graduate sharp as is required for a true ET temperment. And because the steel fretboard is not capable of being tempered by altering individual scale lengths, I now have the same fretting problem that JI presents.

Tempered string instruments require adjustible bridges so that as the player progresses up the neck different notes can increase their pitch seperate from the other strings notes. Due to certain notes harmonic overtones, those notes have to increase pitch at different increments. I would need different scale lengths to allow me to tune to a perfect ET temperment. Unless I can tune my fretboard it will be impossible to maintain ET all the way up the neck.

I know that guitarists and bassists have to set their intonation up the fretboard to match the piano note for note for this exact reason. Seems to be the same holds true for steel guitars as well.

I believe the adjustable bridge has to be the next evolutionary step for the instrument.....Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 March 2004 at 01:12 PM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 March 2004 at 01:16 PM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 March 2004 at 01:20 PM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 March 2004 at 04:02 PM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

EJL

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

.....(from above post) 442.5 with E and C puts me right on the fret and in tune with the Cordavox.....

I don't understand the above post. How can a steel not be in tune with a Cord-O-Vox, regardless of how the steel is tuned?

www.genejones.com

Franklin · Posted 27 Mar 2004 4:05 pm

Gene,
Where is the post you quoted from?
Paul

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Paul,

A steel guitar can easily be tuned to ET across the board. What it cannot be tuned to is "stretch tuned" like a piano.

In other words, IF a piano was tuned pure ET across ALL octaves AND a steel guitar was tuned straight ET, then all notes between the two would be the same (assuming no cabinet drop, etc).

However, IF a piano is tuned straight ET across all octaves, a strange phenomenon occurs. Every lower octave below middle C would sound progressively sharper and every octave above middle C would sound progessively flatter in respect to the steel guitar tuned straight ET.

In order to make a piano sound as though it was tuned straight ET across all octaves, it is necessary to "stretch" tune it. So it becomes a sound perception thing rather than a mathematical, or physical thing. IE, a stretch tuned piano SOUNDS like it is tune straight ET across all octaves. A piano tuned straight ET does NOT sound like it is tuned ET across all octaves.

It is theorised by many piano experts that this is primarily due to the strings NOT being the same length. So in the case of a steel guitar, the strings are all the same length.

So the phenomenon does not exist in the steel guitar. Thus a steel guitar tuned straigh ET WILL sound like a piano note for note (assuming no cabinet drop), IF the piano is stretch tuned. If the piano is tuned straight ET, then a steel guitar tuned straight ET, will only sound in perfect tune with the piano in the middle C octave.

Octaves higher and the steel will sound sharp to the piano and octaves lower the steel guitar will sound flat to the piano.

For some statistics and more in depth reading about "stretch piano tuning", click on the link below, then click on "APPS" in the list, then click on "The Equal tempered scale and some peculiarities of piano tuning".
http://www.precisionstrobe.com/

carl

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Soo....

In a harmonized scale, is the whole IIIm chord flat 5 cents to "sound right"?

EJL

EJL

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

Thanks for all the replies and they have been a big help. I just got a new guitar and the tuners are a lot better so I can tune more acuratlly. Last night at practice I tuned to 442 and tuned the beats out which was so easy with my new guitar. I had a little trouble getting used to the thirds but in the context of the cord it sounded better. Im playing with a keyboard player using a Kurzweil. What I would like to know is and Im sure there will be more than one opion when you are tuning the beats out for JI is there any order that is best to go in. I tuned my fouth string to 442 and then my third string open with the 4th and then my 5th string open with the the 4th and then tuned the octaves 6th with the 3rd 10th with the 5th, first string with the 5th 7th with the 1st. Am I on the right track and what is the best procedure to pedals down , thanks again for all the help,you dont know how much I appreciate it.

Jeff

Franklin · Posted 27 Mar 2004 7:35 pm

Hi Carl,

With due respect, No matter how much is read on this subject it still comes down to this.

The steel, bass, and guitar, as well as ALL stringed instruments cannot stretch tune all of the octaves to a piano tuned at (ET or whatever one calls it) without some kind of adjustable bridge to tune the instruments intonation.

The steel guitar is the only stringed instrument in the band which can not tune its fretboard for correct intonation. The adjustable bridge on all of those other instruments is there to solve this problem? Even Fiddles adjust their bridge to accomodate tuning to the piano. Acoustic instruments have slanted bridges to accomodate this. Some basses have fan frets to better solve this. We have Two straight lines and one scale length for each string which does not help our instrument implement any kind of temperment.

To test out whether this is true or not, take an electric guitar and try tuning it to 440 straight up to the tuner, with the bridge in a perfectly straight line like our changer is. Now listen to how out the notes are to the piano as you go up the neck of the guitar. Until you adjust the individual strings at the bridge to varying scale lengths its impossible to accurately implement ET on any instrument since ALL pianos ARE stretched tuned.....Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 28 March 2004 at 01:09 AM.]

Franklin · Posted 27 Mar 2004 7:52 pm

Carl,

I believe that even though all stringed instruments have unique sounds, they still all face the same intonation problems brought on by stretch tuning (ET). Do you have some theory that would exempt the pedal steel from ever needing an adjustable bridge for tuning intonation? If so, other than the sound and its capabilities, what makes our instrument any different to its sister, the guitar which has to have different scale lengths to achieve accurate tuning with the piano?

I'm curious to read your thoughts. I respect your input. Although I repectfully disagree with your assumption that having a straight bridge helps our instrument.

I'll have to read this after I get back from Miami this week. We're doing AJ's new CD in the sun and I fly out in the morning.......Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 March 2004 at 08:03 PM.]

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