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Topic: New PSG . . . which options? |
Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 10:29 am |
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Thanks for the feedback, everyone.
Last edited by Buell Wisner on 28 Oct 2014 11:48 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 10:33 am
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| Oh, and feel free to PM me if you want to share anything more discreetly. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 10:51 am
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| My idea is that a new guitar arrives on the UPS truck, I unpack it, put the legs, rods, and pedalboard on it, tune it, and play a gig. That's what I want. Is that unrealistic? |
Realistic. When I ordered my Carter, I filled out a form with body measurements so that it would be a good ergonomic fit. This is an excellent service. I don't know if Williams does this. But with the exception of specific things such as being short or tall, it is not a hugely major consideration.
Bottom line--take it out of the case and get accustomed to how it feels--that will take as long as it takes. The guitar itself is ready to take the stage.
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| Am I doing myself a HUGE disservice by not traveling around the country and playing other makes/models? I'm trusting in the "player X plays one" logic from my teenager years, and the clock's ticking on my Carter Starter (don't forget the build time). |
Your plan makes plenty of sense to me. There is no guarantee that this guitar will be your soul mate. Could be that a few years down the road you may fall in love with a p/p or an old Bud. But the Williams will most certainly be excellent.
The fact that your influences choose and play one is not everything but it's not nothing. |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 11:00 am
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It's never a bad idea to get out and test drive various guitars as they all have their differences.
I bought a Williams without ever seeing one other than online and I have never looked back. Bill's work is as top of the line as they come.
As for your expectation on getting it,setting it up and playing it at the next gig is something only you will know if you're ready for because the guitar will be ready whether you are or not.
I would think hard on a single coil pickup.I play many different venues and single coils were a no go for me due to the hum. I went back to Humbuckers and am very happy with the sound I get.
Don't limit yourself to 4 knee levers and get 5 as the price isn't that much more and the builder will set it up to work as it should.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 11:09 am
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| Dick Wood wrote: |
| Don't limit yourself to 4 knee levers and get 5 as the price isn't that much more and the builder will set it up to work as it should. |
Oops--I meant five. That's the standard on a Williams (with the vertical knee for flatting the fifth string a half-step). I was thinking about my CS, which has four.
Is hum really that bad of a problem? I could see it in the studio, but I've played a couple of hundred shows on six string and probably twenty shows on PSG without being bothered by 60 cycle hum.
Does the hum become an issue in specific kinds of shows? (Maybe with upper end sound systems or something?) |
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Roger Crawford
From:
Griffin, GA USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 11:15 am
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Buell,
Dick brings up an excellent point about not limiting yourself to four knee levers (or three pedals for that matter). Have as many options available to you as possible! Williams is certainly a top of the line guitar, but there are other great guitars available as well. Don't rule out Mullen, Show-Pro, Rittenberry, Justice among others. I see that you're from Georgia. The GaSGA is having a show in Conyers, GA on November 9th. Come on down and talk to the players and look over their gear. They'll all be more than happy to give you their take on the pros and cons of what they play.
Last edited by Roger Crawford on 22 Oct 2014 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 11:17 am
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The hum is almost always caused by dimmers used in lighting at clubs.If the lights are dimmed you really hear until they bring the lights all the way up then it drops considerably. Some clubs don't use dimmers so it's less a factor at these places.
Pickups in six strings are oriented in a different plane than steel guitars. Have you ever taken a guitar and moved it around at a club and noticed the hum change as you held it at various angles?
At a few clubs the hum was louder than the actual note so I had to get that fixed. You will never know until you try it.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 11:26 am
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| Roger Crawford wrote: |
Buell,
Dick brings up an excellent point about not limiting yourself to four knee levers (or three pedals for that matter). Have as many options available to you as possible! Williams is certainly a top of the line guitar, but there are other great guitars available as well. Don't rule Mullen, Show-Pro, Rittenberry, Justice among others. I see that you're from Georgia. The GaSGA is having a show in Conyers, GA on November 9th. Come on down and talk to the players and look over their gear. They'll all be more than happy to give you their take on the pros and cons of what they play. |
I'm planning to come to the show in November, Roger, so I'll try to contain myself until after then. 
The problem is that I've got some important gigs and sessions on the horizon and need to get an order placed before too long.
Price is a big issue for me, and Williams's standard S-10 is many hundreds of dollars cheaper than the others. Those would mean an extra six months of saving, when I needed a pro-level guitar six months ago.
I've been going through "the gear chase" on six-string for a couple of decades, so I understand the importance of getting a big purchase right. I don't really have the money (or time) to chase PSG tone, so I'm trying to get myself mentally in a pre-internet frame of mind (when decisions were as simple as "Strat like Hendrix or Les Paul like Jimmy Page?").
My hope is that (as with the above decision) I'd be fairly happy with the result. To be honest, I'd be content with the Carter Starter if it sounded better. It stays in tune, for instance. I'm just tired of the ugly overtones and the difficulty of dialing out some of its ugly frequencies in a band context. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 11:56 am
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If you like single coil sound but want a humbucker for when rooms give you trouble, I'd suggest a 705, which has all the output wires needed to shunt one coil to ground, so you can run single coil when you want vintage twang and growl (the Germans call it Stürm und Twang), and the full humbucker for him control and beefier overdrive. And, if you order it that way, you'll know the switch is in right and in a good place.
I like the Williams. While nearly everyone makes an excellent guitar nowadays, Bill Rudolph (Williams) and Kyle Bennett (MSA) are constantly evolving the pedal steel.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 12:09 pm
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| Dick Wood wrote: |
The hum is almost always caused by dimmers used in lighting at clubs.If the lights are dimmed you really hear until they bring the lights all the way up then it drops considerably. Some clubs don't use dimmers so it's less a factor at these places.
Pickups in six strings are oriented in a different plane than steel guitars. Have you ever taken a guitar and moved it around at a club and noticed the hum change as you held it at various angles?
At a few clubs the hum was louder than the actual note so I had to get that fixed. You will never know until you try it. |
Thanks, Dick. That gives me more to think about. |
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Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 12:11 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
If you like single coil sound but want a humbucker for when rooms give you trouble, I'd suggest a 705, which has all the output wires needed to shunt one coil to ground, so you can run single coil when you want vintage twang and growl (the Germans call it Stürm und Twang), and the full humbucker for him control and beefier overdrive. And, if you order it that way, you'll know the switch is in right and in a good place.
I like the Williams. While nearly everyone makes an excellent guitar nowadays, Bill Rudolph (Williams) and Kyle Bennett (MSA) are constantly evolving the pedal steel. |
Thanks, Lane.
Anybody else have good results with coil splitting?
I played a vintage Sho-Bud, and the coil tap on it required entirely re-setting the EQ (in the low output tap nothing was left except for the highs).
Would this be a problem with splitting the 705?
Last edited by Buell Wisner on 22 Oct 2014 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 12:18 pm
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The tone seems similar in single v. humbucker (remember it's two identical coils). But a little edgier of course.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 1:18 pm
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i think your choice of a williams is a good one. go to the steel show first...you may run across a great used one for less money and no wait.
i've used single coils on all my steels for 45 years. aside from a couple rare situations i never had problems. |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 2:41 pm
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| Bill, in forty years I've had quite a few clubs that my p/p Emmons single coils hummed ridiculously. I'm a firm believer in BL humbuckers. Pro model Carter guitars are selling relatively cheap these days. Make sure to speak to all of us at the Atlanta Show. |
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 2:54 pm
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| The Jackson Steel Guitar Company, which is run by Harry and David Jackson, the sons of Sho-Bud builder Shot Jackson also builds great steels. They've got a model called the BlackJack Custom with three pedals, and four knees, and I play one of those steels-its' tone is similar to the sounds of a Sho-Bud. The Blackjack Custom can be built with or without a pad and it's a great steel for any level. It's got a 24 scale fretboard and now it can be any color. |
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James Wolf
From:
Georgia
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 3:01 pm
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| Brett Day wrote: |
| The Jackson Steel Guitar Company, which is run by Harry and David Jackson, the sons of Sho-Bud builder Shot Jackson also builds great steels. They've got a model called the BlackJack Custom with three pedals, and four knees, and I play one of those steels-its' tone is similar to the sounds of a Sho-Bud. The Blackjack Custom can be built with or without a pad and it's a great steel for any level. It's got a 24 scale fretboard and now it can be any color. |
Dawn Jackson used to live here in Macon. I met her randomly at a get together. She's good people. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 3:02 pm Re: New PSG . . . which options?
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| Buell Wisner wrote: |
The CS's tonal limitations have become an impediment at this point.
[/i] |
Something is way off, then. My Starter has a single coil, so it has a more traditional tone than the humbucker in my MSA 12 string. It *sounds* just fine. They didn't scrimp on the pickup too much.
Starters have cheezy knees ( that can be improved with a lot of patience ), a fixed copedent and funky pedals but they *sound* fine.
Just saying - I'd work with the Starter until you get it sounding good, then change guitars. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 3:43 pm
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What sounds good to one person may not sound good to another. I personally don't like the sound of Sierra's and MSA's, and have never heard one that blew me away. But there are many on here that swear by them.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 3:55 pm
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| You don't need to buy a new guitar to get a quality instrument. Go to that Georgia show and make it known that you are looking for a guitar. I'll bet you will locate a fine one for a reasonable price. And I agree that a used Carter pro S-10 or Sd-10 would be one you should consider. I've owned a few Carters, they are very good, high quality guitars. And if you are not using a real steel guitar amp, that's something you should look at too. A Peavey Nashville 112 is a good one. Good luck with your search. |
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Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 4:07 pm Re: New PSG . . . which options?
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| Les Cargill wrote: |
| Buell Wisner wrote: |
The CS's tonal limitations have become an impediment at this point.
[/i] |
Something is way off, then. My Starter has a single coil, so it has a more traditional tone than the humbucker in my MSA 12 string. It *sounds* just fine. They didn't scrimp on the pickup too much.
Starters have cheezy knees ( that can be improved with a lot of patience ), a fixed copedent and funky pedals but they *sound* fine.
Just saying - I'd work with the Starter until you get it sounding good, then change guitars. |
Are there generational differences in the CS pickups?
I've been working with the Starter for almost five years (I got it used on this forum). It stays in tune, and I haven't found a real reason to change the copedant since I doubled down on learning its nooks and crannies. Mine is simply not a good sounding guitar. I had a '70s Sho Bud for a while (too many mechanical complexities for me to keep), and the tonal difference was akin to the difference between a Fender Custom Shop guitar and an Indonesian "Hello Kitty" strat knockoff.
It has harsh overtones, little sustain, and requires a lot of EQ to make work. Possibly, I get more overtones due to using vintage fender tube amps. Who knows? Right now, I'm making do with a variable impedance buffer with the impedance way down low. That helps, as does dialing out treble frequencies as much as I can (it's got one real problem spike that it possesses on multiple amps). The guitar has a strong output, so I would assume the pickup is not broken.*
Again, I go back to the full-range smoothness and sustain of the '70s Sho-Bud. The difference was immense, and doubt it was only the pickup.
I'm a seasoned musician, so I realize that the single most important thing is playing ability. The CS has been a good instrument for me, but I've reached the point where I need a better one. It's that simple. If I could make a gradual move up the ladder, I would. The pedal steel world doesn't seem to work that way.
Like I said, I want a pro-level guitar that will show up on my doorstep ready for that night's rehearsal or gig. That means investing, but I'm at the point where I can invest without feeling like a poseur.
*I guess I could get a replacement CS pickup to check. They're $40 at Steel Guitar Canada.
http://www.steelguitarscanada.com/online-store/products-page-2/bill-lawrence-pickups/bill-lawrence-carter-starter-pickups/ |
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Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 4:16 pm
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| Bill Moore wrote: |
| You don't need to buy a new guitar to get a quality instrument. Go to that Georgia show and make it known that you are looking for a guitar. I'll bet you will locate a fine one for a reasonable price. And I agree that a used Carter pro S-10 or Sd-10 would be one you should consider. I've owned a few Carters, they are very good, high quality guitars. And if you are not using a real steel guitar amp, that's something you should look at too. A Peavey Nashville 112 is a good one. Good luck with your search. |
I would be very interested in used guitars, including the professional level Carters, if I could get an extensive trial first. But I'm not in the position to gamble (again) and then face a $500-1000 overhaul that will take six months or more to accomplish.
Are Deluxe Reverbs and Twin Reverbs not real steel amps? A lot of past and current pros use them, and my amps sounded good with the Sho Bud. Do tube amps inherently have more harmonic content? If so, they might "expose" a lower quality instrument.
Believe me, I'm not wanting a better instrument out of stubbornness (though perhaps my allegiance to the Fender amps that I can also use for six-string guitar is stubbornness).
I'm guessing that no one on this forum has ever bought a new car. Am I right?
Last edited by Buell Wisner on 22 Oct 2014 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 4:17 pm
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| Brett Day wrote: |
| The Jackson Steel Guitar Company, which is run by Harry and David Jackson, the sons of Sho-Bud builder Shot Jackson also builds great steels. They've got a model called the BlackJack Custom with three pedals, and four knees, and I play one of those steels-its' tone is similar to the sounds of a Sho-Bud. The Blackjack Custom can be built with or without a pad and it's a great steel for any level. It's got a 24 scale fretboard and now it can be any color. |
Thanks for the tip. I've done a little research, and they're sweet looking guitars. |
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Larry Baker
From:
Columbia, Mo. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 4:19 pm
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I've owned Five different brands, and currently play a Mullen which in my personal opinion is the best. FYI , Gary Sill in Illinois is a Mullen dealer, and keeps some in stock, so no waiting. Everyone has their favorites, this is just my thoughts. Good luck on your venture. Larry
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 3 & 5 The Eagle
NV112 amp===Earnie Ball V.P. |
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Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 4:24 pm
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| Larry Baker wrote: |
| I've owned Five different brands, and currently play a Mullen which in my personal opinion is the best. FYI , Gary Sill in Illinois is a Mullen dealer, and keeps some in stock, so no waiting. Everyone has their favorites, this is just my thoughts. Good luck on your venture. Larry |
I'd love to try a Mullen G2. That would be a definite contender if it were a bit more budget-friendly. |
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Larry Baker
From:
Columbia, Mo. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Oct 2014 4:27 pm
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Buell, try the Mullen Discovery. totally professional guitar and reasonably priced. Check them out. Larry
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 3 & 5 The Eagle
NV112 amp===Earnie Ball V.P. |
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