Tuning 440?

Jack Hargraves · From: Missouri, USA

I have been playing Pedal steel for about four years, and there are a lot of things I don't know or understand. I have always tuned my GFI SD 10 to 440, all strings, including the pedals and knees. I've heard that some tune some strings to 440 and others to 335, etc. One in particular said he tuned his E(4th) string to 440 open, but with the LKL activated to F, he tunes the lever to 335.5 I haven't done that yet, but I just wondered if anybody else did, and if so, what is the reason for it.
_________________
GFI Expo SD10, Nashville 112, Steelers choice Pak-a- seat, Carter vol. pedal, Stage one vol. pedal, Peavey Deltafex. Goodrich volume pedal.

James Sission · From: Sugar Land,Texas USA

You can expect a good deal of responses on a good old fashion tuning thread. That said, I tried several methods and ended up using Jeff Newman's tuning chart. I typically tweak it a little for whatever guitar I am playing, but it gets me close. Here is link to it:

http://www.jeffran.com/tuning.php

Ok, I going to make me some popcorn and toggle back and forth between this and the Texans game.

DG Whitley · Posted 20 Oct 2014 2:55 pm

Jack, this is a "can of worms" topic that has been debated many times on the Forum and you can do a search to find those if you'd like. I would say if you sound in tune to the band or tracks you play to, leave well enough alone.

But for the record, there are those who, like you, tune everything to 440 or "Equal Temperament" or ET. There are others (like me) who use some form of "Just Intonation" where we compromise individual string tuning to make the majority of notes and chords we play to sound in tune. You can find more info than you probably want to know in the previous discussions.

But again, if you're happy with how you tune, and you're in tune with the band you play with or the tracks you play to, why fix what isn't broken?

Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Indeed. Buddy Emmons tunes straight up, I tune almost everything straight up except: F, G#, A# and D#. Those go 4 cents flat of straight up.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Philip Mitrakos · From: The Beach South East Florida

I installed this tempered tuning into a peterson flip tuner and it's very simple to tune my steel ...
And I still wish straight up 440 worked for me..... but ....well...

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

I tried that tuning straight up thing and ain't no way it works for me.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.

Wayne Ledbetter · From: Arkansas, USA

I remember doing some kind of adjusting back in the 80s when I was playing and using most the time an old Korg tuner then bought a Conn Stob later. You guys can correct me but I think pianos are JT...they do not straight up tune them. I will say that Newman changed his tuning from E straight up to E being sharp. Naturally all the pitches are adjusted in accordance with the new Newman tuning. If I am not wrong the Peteson Stobplus has the new Newman tuning already in it if you want to use it and the C6 as well. They call them sweetened( or something like that) tuning. I use that.
_________________
Sho Bud Super Pro, Fender Twin Reissue, Martin HD-28, Gibson J-45, Gibson RB-250,Stelling Bellflower,Regal Dobro, Takamine and Alvarez Classical, Fender Telecaster, Peavey Studio Pro 112. Mainly played Gospel and some bluegrass.

Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

Pianos are basically ET, but with small changes and a poorly understood overall shift called "stretch".

Pianos are the reason there is ET.

Wayne Ledbetter · From: Arkansas, USA

So let me get this straight. Emmons use a tempered tuning, right? Newman used a tempered tuning, right. Some one tell me are we calling these ET or JI....I thought we were kind of doing like the piano. We can not compensate like an electric guitar. What am I missing?
_________________
Sho Bud Super Pro, Fender Twin Reissue, Martin HD-28, Gibson J-45, Gibson RB-250,Stelling Bellflower,Regal Dobro, Takamine and Alvarez Classical, Fender Telecaster, Peavey Studio Pro 112. Mainly played Gospel and some bluegrass.

Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

Emmons used something close to Just Intonation ( aka Just Temperament ) for many years but later uses Equal Temperament. This has to do with guitars getting more capable of being in ET - less cabinet drop, compensators, what have you. Maybe he just changed his mind, but in an interview, he attributes some of it to a guitar ( a LeGrande ).

The problem with JT is the exact frequency is different for different scales. For the key of B, an F# in JI is one thing.

As the major third in the key of D, it's a different frequency.

With ET, an F# is an F# is an F#, but you get beats.

Steel can use JT because we do things relative to the bar position. We kinda get drawn into it because of cabinet drop. Then it becomes part of the sound of the instrument.

Larry Robertson · From: Denver, Colorado, USA

At the danger of being thought of as a fool for adding to a subject already beat to death on this forum, I'll add some comments that I have not seen on any of the tuning discussions I have seen on this forum in the last five or six years. First is a website I found with the proper frequencies for concert pitch. See this site for the actual frequencies of each note on a piano: http://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-notenames.htm. Second, All our discussions seem to be based on using a tuner calculated to 440 hertz for note A4 on piano and then re-calculated to something other than 440 to adjust the temper of the other notes on the steel. Tune each open string to the piano, and each pedal, lever, and pedal/lever combination to the proper piano pitch. If you tune to the piano, you should have no trouble 'playing in tune' It seems to me many of the tuning problems that steel guitar players have is trying to find that spot at every place on the instrument that has perfect intervals. Meaning no beats on any interval. It's not possible! Every interval is out of "perfect tune" So tune to the piano. Or, short of that (not every band has a properly tuned piano) Get yourself a tuner that reads FREQUENCY, and refer to the frequencies on the above website. Because it is the frequency that matters, not how sharp or flat a particular interval is tuned. Then, PLAY the DAMN THING. Play it in tune! if you gotta slant the bar a little to compensate, then slant the bar a little. If you gotta press a pedal harder or softer to play it in tune then do that, but play in tune! We have to stop looking for a magic, scientific, perfect formula to solve the problem of bad ears.
_________________
Website: www.Music2myEars.net
MSA D-10, Carter U12, Fessy SDU-12,Emmons P/P D-10, Emmons P/P U-12,Emmons S-10 ShoBud SuperPro, Lap steel, keyboards, 6-string Guitars.. too many

Jack Hargraves · From: Missouri, USA

Thanks for all the input, fellas. I did forget to mention that when my 3rd (G#) string is tuned 440 it sounds sharp, so I tune it so it sounds right to me, then I tune P2 to A 440 and it sounds good. Any way, I have learned a lot in this discussion. Thanks again.
_________________
GFI Expo SD10, Nashville 112, Steelers choice Pak-a- seat, Carter vol. pedal, Stage one vol. pedal, Peavey Deltafex. Goodrich volume pedal.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

The thing that drives me nuts about these threads is the way people talk (as in the Newman chart) of "tuning C# to 438.5". They aren't. They're telling the tuner that they want A to be 438.5 (which they don't) and then asking it for an even-tempered C# (which they don't want). It's all lies!

JI can't be maintained across all the changes on a modern guitar, but ET sounds like a bag of nails (or a piano). So we compromise. I don't have a programmable tuner but I can see the sense of personalising your settings - as Larry suggests, a lot of it's in the hands rather than the maths.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

The best reason I can think of for tuning the steel-guitar straight up to 440 is that it would be in tune with piano (at least on the open strings), but you dont hear piano and steel-guitar playing at the same time on a lot of recordings and there might be a good reason why the song has been arranged like that.

The 2nd good reason for tuning straight up to 440 is that all the "just" intonated notes will be equally offset no matter which strings you play. A just intonated 3rd will always be the same amount flat from your reference fret(which would be in tune w a piano)
This works totally fine for single notes or 2 notes harmony. 3 notes(strings) at a time or more and you probably gonna run into issues where things start sounding out of tune one way or the other.

Thats when your ear gonna tell you to adjust something, somehow, somewhere to get this chord in tune.

B.Erlandsen

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

The way Buddy does it...

http://www.buddyemmons.com/ttchart.htm
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it

I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus!

James Jacoby · From: Ohio, USA

- as Larry suggests, a lot of it's in the hands rather than the maths.[/quote] I heartily agree with this concept.I do lead guitar in one of the bands I play in. When we practice at my house, the steel player plays my steel, and always says my tuning (on my steel), is way off.(I tune straight up 440, open strings, pedals, and levers) After the band leaves, I usually practice on my steel. When I play with his tuning, my steel still sounds in tune, just as it does when I tune to 440. He uses the beats with his tuning(I don't). I conclude, that I compensate, when I play, and he doesn't. No one ever says either of us is out of tune, when we're playing on my steel(he with his tempered tuning, or me with his tuning, or my 440.) I often practice with tapes, which are sometimes somewhat off 440(my tape player speed is inaccurate), and I have to play slightly off the frets to compensate. Sometimes I shut my eyes, and play, to keep from being distracted by the frets. I truly believe that most of it IS in the hands, and ears, or I wouldn't be able to do this. I think I must be compensating for cabinet drop, also. IMHO, I think most of us PSG players, differ in our playing styles, techniques, bar pressure, etc. etc.,so, probably most of us will never agree,totally, on tuning methods. I think, steel guitars differ more, from one another, than ANY other musical instrument.(Try playing some one else's, as well as your own!) I don't think, many can! -Jake-

Bill C. Buntin · From: Cleburne TX

Indeed it is a "Can of Worms". If you are playing with the average band in the night clubs etc., particularly one that has a piano, it works best to tune as close to the piano as possible and hopefully the guitarist, fiddle player will do the same.

It also depends on the steel guitar itself and the knowledge, ears and understanding of the steel player. Where some guitars have more cabinet drop than others, it is often a necessity more than a preference to sharp some notes and temper others a bit flat.

Tuning everything as close to 440 as possible is a very subjective thing. Comparing to piano, it theoretically makes sense. Some people feel like their thirds sound "sharp". If you are used to JI then it will sound a bit sharp.

For me, it has worked out best, to bring everything in as close to 440 as possible.

you can work all of this out ahead of time using harmonics and such, then memorize where everything typically tempers for the the overall guitar to be In tune.

Then you can tune up in a noisy environment using your tuner.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

All tunings are tempered; some are more equal than others. Smile

A piano temperament has 'stretch' built into the middle octave, between F below to F above middle C. It's necessary due to the very high stiffness of upper treble strings (and the complex nature of harmonics), something not necessary in steel guitar tuning.

That being said, I've yet to hear, on professional recordings, steel guitar tunings that clash with pianos and fiddles. Good players temper scales with the left hand.
It's an individual thing you can't do on a piano.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

If it were as simple as "Just use this chart and you'll be fine", there would never be a tuning argument or discussion. Therefore, one thing that must be remembered is that any tuning method will likely be different for each player and each instrument. Many factors, like bar pressure, playing technique (micro-slants), string guages, string types, scale lengths, cabinet drop, and a host of other variables, will affect how a guitar needs to be tuned to sound in tune when it's played.

"One size fits all" may work with socks and wool caps, but it certainly won't work for tuning methods. Shocked

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Billy Murdoch · From: Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.

I have had the great pleasure of hearing many of the World's finest Pedal Steel players in person after several visits to the T.S.G.A. shows at Dallas.
I know that they did not all tune the same way but never did I hear anyone "out of tune"
I use the Newman settings and when I am out of tune it is My fault and mine only. Smile

Best regards
Billy

Alan Bidmade · From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Agree that it's all in the hands (and ears). I've been using a Peterson Strobo Plus for two years, and I'm getting closer to being 'in tune' as the weeks and months go by - so it's no good just 'tuning up' to the tuner - somehow, your hands (and ears) become more sophisticated, resulting in a sweeter-sounding steel. (I can't help think, though, that there are 'unconscious' elements at work - after all, most of us have only one steel guitar that we play, so we become used to the idiosyncracies of that particular guitar and may be making tiny adjustments that wouldn't work on another guitar.) But a good tuner gets you 95% of the way there. Don't just trust the dials - trust your ears!
_________________
Ben-Rom #017 'Lorelei', Guild D25, Epiphone 'Joe Pass', Roland 40XL, Hilton VP

First name Alan, but known as Nick

Mark Draycott R.I.P. · From: Portland, OR

I have been playing a few years now. Not a lot of experience, but it seems that some days I am in tune and some days I am not.
I think the closed loop between my hands and ears changes. Some days I can hit all the chord changes and notes and they sound perfect. Other days, nothing sounds right.
It is not the tuning. I check the guitar on my Peterson and make sure it is in tune.
It is me, keeping the bar in the right place and adjusting correctly.
_________________
1976 Sho-Bud Pro II, 1976 Sho-Bud LDG, BF Fender Deluxe, Evans FET 500 LV, BF Princeton Reverb, '68 Vibrolux Reverb

Jim Bates · From: Alvin, Texas, USA

I just want to be able to play the old "Bud's Bounce" in key of E, and use an open chord any time I want to AND always be in tune.

IN the old days when we used piano in band, I would always tune to middle'E' (the E above middle C)on the piano. Then I had a three neck Fender and tuned every E (C6th,E 13th, and A6th) on those necks. We were always in tune with each other, but had no idea of how close or far from a true we were.

Thanx,
Jim

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic