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Topic: Middle KLRaise for C6. Best Codependant? |
Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Feb 2004 10:00 pm |
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OK. I suppose it's getting the cart way before the horse, but here's my idea.
(Standard Emmons E9 including the 9th string lower on the RKL. F#s spilt to G# on the 7th string and G on the 1st.)
(I see Bud C has what looks like a Middle Vertical for his C6 in that PV picture of his new Zum. Anybody know what it is?)
To begin with I'd have it do the same thing as the ma7/9 #7 pedal. Why? to be able to use it with the 5th or 6th pedal. Maybe with both As going to Bs.(My 4th pedal inverts the 6th pedal.) At least it would "be there" for another change further down the road.
Anybody else have an interesting change on a "middle" vertical knee lever on a "Standard C6"?
I'm thinking of adding it on my ProIII as well as including it on the Marrs.
Never found much use for extra KLs on the E9, as lowering the Bs is redundant.
Thanks for any replies. I have a while to get it figgered out.
EJL
PS. I just figgured out that all I have to do to add it to my PIII is weld a tab on the 7th pedal axle and put a knee lever on it. It's in the right spot and everything.
[This message was edited by Eric West on 26 February 2004 at 10:17 PM.] |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2004 10:28 pm
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Eric...I know most guys would probably discourage it, but I lucked into an in-tune
half (feel)stop C-C#-D on the 3rd string without any problems. I use it all over the song I posted awhile back. I love it! |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 1:28 am
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Eric post your copedent.
YOu'll most likely get a ton of comments then.  [This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 February 2004 at 03:55 AM.] |
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Paul Brainard
From:
Portland OR
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 7:17 am
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I think a lot of people lower one or both A's 1/2 step with it (I do.) I use it mostly for a little bluesy bend with pedal 6, but there are also some augmented and minor & major 7th voicings it will get you. I recommend getting a tunable split on these strings if you do this.
As I remember, Jerry Gleason down in Eugene has that #7 pedal change on a knee lever just so he can use it with the other pedals like you're talking about - you might see what he has to say. Good luck! |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 7:37 am
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| Quote: |
| "F#s spilt to G# on the 7th string" |
Eric, I don't understand. Could you go into this a little deeper? The "standard" E9th "split" is to lower the 6th string a whole tone on RKL and split it with the B pedal. Is this what you meant or did you mean something entirely different?
As to a LKV for C6, some of us have had this for many years. But as yet I have not seen a standard evolving here. The following are some of the changes I have seen on LKV for C6.
1. Lower the 5th string a whole tone.
2. Raise the 6th string a half a tone.
3. Lower the 4th string a half a tone.
4. The 8th pedal.
5. Lower the 6th string a whole tone.
As to putting the 7th pedal on a knee lever, there are some players who have been doing that for years. One is Bill Stafford if I am not mistaken.
I love pedal 5 and 7 used together, but I opt to put the 6th pedal on a knee lever (RKR). This means the standard C to B lever on the right knee must go on the left knee. I opt to let it be LKV on C6. But I imagine I am the only person that does that on a D-10. However MOST do it on a universal this way, IE, lower string 5 from B to Bb on LKV on a universal-12.
I disagree with the B to Bb change on E9th. I find it a very necessary change and also it is becoming a standard more and more in my talks with builders. That is, many are shipping their new guitars with this change. While I agree you can get the chord in other places, I do not believe it sounds the same. Here is an example:
Tom Brumley did NOT lower his 5th string to get that infamous lick on "Together Again", but he does lower it now and he uses it sometimes to play the lick, albeit using strings 3, 4 and 5 (B to Bb) rather than just strings 3 and 5.
He could get this same 3 note lick in other places but it would not (IMO) sound the same.
carl
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 5:14 pm
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Well DLD. I don't really kow how they do it but mine is:
E9: ABC standard Emmons. LKL Raises the Es LKR Lowers them. RKL raises the 7th string F# to G#, half stopped by the pull of the 1st string F# to only G and the lower of the 3rd string on the C6 Neck. RKR lowers the 2nd string a whole tone with a half stop.
C6: "Standard Emmons" Pedal 8 is the A7 Chord 7 is the major 7/9 change. Pedal 6 is the Lowers the 6 and raises the 2. Pedal 5 is the D7 standard. Pedal 4 is the Inverse of pedal 6. 1st string is a D and is not changed by any pedals. RKL lowers the third to B.
If you or somebody could put this into .gif, or some other form I'd appreciate it. I was thinking of using Excel, but haven't had much time between the new day job and cramming for upcoming gigs.
Also..
I tried lowering the As, but don't see much purpose of it for now.
Mainly when ordering my Marrs setup I just want to have a middle KL Vertical available, and can change it later.
I've also thought of eliminating the 7 pedal and making it do something else after replacing it with the Middle KLVert, but what? Maybe put the inverted pedal 6 in it's place and something else for pedal 4. ( It looks like the Marrs setup precludes using it for the E9 unless I guess you ordered it that way)
(It would also be nice to have something that would raise the F to a G for Travis Style picking, but again.. For now, like I always have, I use my left thumbnail to "fret" the 9th string two frets up from the bar for that function.
Thanks for any input.)
EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 27 February 2004 at 07:55 PM.] |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 5:20 pm
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Carl. I guess "split" was the wrong word.
I always do that "one fret down B Pedal/LKL ( E raise) to "Lower the B's". Except in the open Pos. (Pretty easy change unless the tuning has been screwed with to eliminate "beats" for some screwy reason... )
Let me digest more of your response later SVP. I'm so hungry right now I could eat the north end of a southbound chicken..
More later.
EJL |
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John McGann
From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 5:38 pm
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Eric, depending on how much you might use it based on the style of music you are playing, there is a TON available on the 4th string lower. I would'nt want to not have it on C6th.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/006535.html |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 9:04 pm
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The lowered A does afford an easy augmented not readily available on the C6 as well as with the lowered third string a REAL nice E7 chord in the open position with the 5321 combo. ( D on top)
(As far as raising the D like I see some do on top, I find it way easy to pull it with the bar hand pinky. Raising the G OTOH is a little more iffy so I can see that change.)
It was just this fall that I started raising the low F# a whole step on the old E9 and it's just now getting comfortable.
I do like the 7th pedal being on a Vert though, and putting an A lower on the 7th pedal seems like it'd be hard to get used to.
Hmm.. [This message was edited by Eric West on 27 February 2004 at 09:05 PM.] |
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Rainer Hackstaette
From:
Bohmte, Germany
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Posted 28 Feb 2004 5:21 am
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Eric,
is this your copedent?
LKL LKR 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 RKL RKR
1 F# G
2 D# D/C#
3 G# A
4 E F D# F#
5 B C# C#
6 G# A
7 F# G/G#
8 E F D#
9 D
10 B C#
LKV
1 D
2 E Eb F
3 C D B
4 A B
5 G F#
6 E F Eb
7 C C#
8 A
9 F F# E
10 C D A
My suggestions:
- E9: 9-D-C# on RKR
- C6: 3-C-C# on RKR and 4-A-Bb on LKV
I don't see why you can't use P4 on E9 as well. The crossbar is already in place, you'll only need bellcranks and pullrods. I use P4 for both necks on all my D-10s with a total of 5 pulls without any problem. Whatever you put on P4, you won't be using it nearly as much as the other pedals. So if it's a little stiffer it won't really matter.
Rainer
------------------
Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, Sho~Bud Pro-I 3+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2004 7:51 am
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My suggestion would follow Ranier's exactly, with the following suggestion.
On your E9th RKL, I would add the following two pulls:
1. Raise 1 a whole tone.
2. Raise 2 a half a tone.
The 2nd string raise would give you a "feel" for the G notes on 1 and 7. PLUS, give you the latest sounds PF is doing on soooo many hit recordings.
Finally, I am suprised you have not been pulling the 4th string A to Bb on your C neck. This has been a standard change for many years now.
Also, I would be very much suprised if you did not find yourself "not" liking pedal 7 on a vertical knee lever. The following is why.
This pedal is used alone many times in a fast staccato type manuever and because you are pulling two string a whole tone, I believe you may find LKV not a wise choice for this change.
However, you are not me. And who knows, you may just love it.
In any case, much good luck, and may Jesus bless you in your quests,
carl
A Better Way |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Feb 2004 10:31 am
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RH. Yes. Thanks. That's it. I have temporarily put the 2nd string lower on the LKR with the E lowers as it gives a nice fat chord, but I'm not liking it. I did it by scabbing the fingers together with a small "strap". of course it would go better on the RKR, and I will be doing that on the Marrs. Also, I would raise string 1 a whole tone, and will, but I use the start of the pull as my half stop for the lower F#.
Carl I Had tried the 4th string to Bb on the 4th pedal with the F to G for "Travis picking" but I found it rather cumbersome, and if I wanted it that bad I could pull it with my left ring finger or I suppose, half stop the 7th pedal. Methinks you are right about the 7th bedal, especially with the "rock sounding" licks 4 and 7 frets down and the rocking in of the 6th pedal etc.
I'm tending to go with lowering the A with the vkl for now. I just want to make sure I have the options for it in the future.
THanks. MOre as I think of it.
EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 28 February 2004 at 10:33 AM.] |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Feb 2004 2:02 pm
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Until I get an Excel to JPG thing figgered out it's Here
As I think I'll set it up for now.
Thanks all.
EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 28 February 2004 at 02:05 PM.] |
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