Keyless tuners...

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 20 Feb 2004 6:33 pm

I've had a BELA on my MSA for many years. It uses the extra space for a box with a sliding top in which I can store bars and picks 'n stuff. The original model with a smaller diameter nut axle detuned a bit, so he made me one with oil hardened drill rod, maybe 7/16" diameter, I'm not sure. It is a great device, no extra string length, you tune the strings close to where you want them, and the one way clutches hold the strings tight. Then you use the fine tuners the rest of the way.

Larry, if you are out there, my hat's off to you for making me such a nice device.

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 24 Feb 2004 2:13 am

Carl wants a picture of a Kline Keyless tuner.
I said it once, I'll say it again:
Go to my6 Web site <http://julianwinswton.com> and look for Kline under "Me and the Steel"
There is a picture of it from both the top and the underside.

By the way... Just back from OZ and a visit to Anapeg. THAT is the best guitar I've ever seen. Keyless to boot.

JW

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 24 Feb 2004 5:03 am

Good stuff here folks! My new EXCEL is here and will be on display in Dallas. All are invited to take a look.
25 1/2" scale, keyless, gorgeous cherry mahogony finish and is a sight to behold. Best keyless tuner I have ever seen and the five raise, five lower changer allows much more tuning flexibility than any other steel on the market.
My guitar has the Eb locking device and the tuning of the Eb notes has no effect on the Eb knee lever in the E9 tuning. Gives the player the capability to "temper" each tuning without affecting the other, if that is your tuning technique. Very flexible.
So drop by my booth and take a look.

Bill Stafford

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 24 Feb 2004 5:40 am

I saw the BELA tuners one year at Scotty's and was very interested in them but didn't get any info to take home. Are they still available and if so doe's anyone know how to get in touch with the manufacturer. Thanks and have a good 'un, JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 Feb 2004 7:35 am

Are the Bela tuners still available?

Also to my dear friend Bill Stafford. I am happy Mitsuo decided to "decouple" the E to Eb lok from the E to Eb knee lever. I found a serious problem on mine since I also lower the D# to C# with the E's to Eb which I don't do with the E to Eb knee lever.

What this did was cause the Eb's to be too flat when I used the LOK lever. And if I corrected that, my E to Eb's were too sharp with just the knee lever.

By making them separate, you gain two advantages:

1. As you say, you can tune each separately. (A major improvement)

2. You can change the ratio as in my case so the LOK lever is not too hard to move.

Thanks for bringing that to our attention Bill,

carl

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 24 Feb 2004 9:57 am

As far as I know the BELA tuners are no longer being made. I had a conversation with Larry Cummings several years ago and he had given up building them.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 24 Feb 2004 12:10 pm

Carl,
I am trying to picture your lever for pulling the string tight..I am visualizing it pulling the string in one direction, but once it's pulled tight, how do you wrap the string around the screw before the final tightening of the screw ??...Hope all is well with you my friend ...Jim

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 24 Feb 2004 12:13 pm

My Lamar is keyless , and the keyless tuner that it has also has plenty of adjustment to tune everything easily to pitch and beyond ..
It's a very small mechanism that works very well ....Jim

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 Feb 2004 1:56 pm

James,

Hopefully the following will help you to see it better.

This is the "prestretcher". Note I simply made it out of 1/4" thick oak hardwood. I attached a single Emmons key to the short end. The length is around 20 inches as I recall.

Here is a close up view of it.

Here you see why I used 1/4" wood. It sits unassisted between any two adjacent strings. Since I am not changing strings now, I did not show a string attached. But the procedure is quite simple.

1. Install the ball end at the changer.

2. Stretch the string all the way and over the nut roller.

3. Then down over the loosened locking allen head screw*.

4. Pull the string only finger tight; and cut it off about 4 inches beyond the locking screw.

5. Bend about a half inch of string at the end back on itself.

6. Hook the "KEY" hole over this bent end.

7. Wind the key either by hand or an electric screw driver equipped with a string adaptor until the key is very close to the locking nut.

8. Grab the long end of the prestretcher and hold it.

9. Loosen the allen locking screw.

10. Exert downward pressure on the prestretcher until the string is about a half a tone below normal pitch.

11. Lock the allen screw down and cut off the excess string.

Sounds lengthy. In reality takes just a minute. Really! Even less if rushed.

*Note: There are two different keyless arrangements:

1. Horizontal type as shown on mine.

2. Vertical type as is used on Sierra's.

The prestretcher is modified for use on vertical types by simply NOT using the extra piece of wood. Simply drill the hole up about 2 inches from the end and round over the end so it doesnt scratch the fret board. A small piece of stick on felt works great on both types in this regard.

From there the procedure is the same.

In this photo, you can get a perspective of the length of the prestretcher.

Here is a photo that shows the locking screws clearly. Also note strings 11 and 12 as they go straight thru the adjuster. They of course are locked down with pointed allen setscrews (screws a little hard to see) and cut off under the bottom of the guitar as mentioned in my original thread post.

Any questions, please ask,

carl [This message was edited by C Dixon on 24 February 2004 at 02:15 PM.]

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 25 Feb 2004 10:18 am

Carl,
I was wondering if you had any problem's with the strings breaking after you have run the string over the rollers, and around the locking screw....There is now a lot of pressure against that screw, and since there are the treads rubbing against that taught string, I would think that the smaller string's may have a tendency to break ...Just a thought ... It may not even be an issue, but I can see the threads of the locking screw eating at that tight string as I write this ....Thank's for your time, and I like your idea !!....Jim[This message was edited by James Quackenbush on 25 February 2004 at 10:19 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 25 Feb 2004 10:39 am

James,

Your question is very valid, and CAN be a real problem regardless of how one prestretches the string.

Here is what happened on my Sierra. The threads on the allen screw would indeed ocassionally cut the smaller strings into as I was tightning them. Since there was nothing left to grab hold to, the string was of no use after that.

Somehow Mitsuo found an allen head screw where the threads were not cut all the way to the head. This leaves a round smooth area that the string wraps around. So little chance of breaking.

But again you make a very valit point.

carl

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 25 Feb 2004 11:13 am

It's that kind of attention to detail that makes a good steel maker , a GREAT steel maker...There are more and more players singing the praises of the Excel ...I wish more companies would come out with a 25 or 25 1/2 inch scale ....I know that you are a firm believer that a keyless pedal steel has less sustain than a keyed model of the same steel, but there are so many other great things about the keyless tuning head, and with the longer scale, and good pedal steel, you get all the sustain you could ask for ...I'm gonna do a search to see if I can find those screw's with no threads at the head ....GREAT IDEA !!...Thanks for the reply....Jim

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 25 Feb 2004 11:17 am

Carl,
That idea on the 11th and 12th strng is brilliant !!...I've often wondered when those strings are gonna just pull right off of the screw ...This is a much needed modification..
There are other mechanical items on the Excel that are really great also ...Bill Stafford was giving me the run down on features, and this steel is truely like no other !!...Jim

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 25 Feb 2004 11:29 am

I keep reading all these responses with a great deal of amazement and surprise. I have had none of these problems with my Kline. The lengths that some of you are going to just to get strings in your keyless tuners is,, well,,, interesting. With the Kline tuners, all you do is mount the ball-end, put string over the roller, through the tuning finger, pull reasonably tight, wrap around screw, and tighten. No extreme measures required.
Is hysteresis the right term for what we're dealing with here? I thought hysteresis was more of a time effect, regarding how long something took to return to it's natural state after being magnetized or charged.
I've always thought that tuning problems had less to do with the amount of string between the nut and the tuner, but more with the windings on the tuner post. I've always been an advocate of "the fewer windings the better" theory. Less chance of binding and pinching, etc.. When Bob Sperzel came out with his guitar tuners, I got some right away for my 6-string. No windings around the post! Perfect for me. One of my buddies was always wrapping almost the whole string around his tuners. For some reason he thought this method helped lock the strings in tighter. but he was always out-of-tune. I always use one of those old Fender string-stretchers too. Tune up to pitch, run the stretcher up and down several time, and then retune. The Kline stays in tune forever!
Has anyone used locking tuners on a steel?
JB

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 25 Feb 2004 12:11 pm

John,

You make some very good points. When Tom Bradshaw first (30+ yrs ago) used the word "hysterisis", referencing the problem of strings raised then lowerd not coming back true, I felt it may not be the exactly correct word. But who cares? As long as we both know what we mean when we use it in this context.

Incidently, the root of the problem is not at the keypost. It is the string length beyond the nut roller NOT all coming back over the roller when the change is released. This is why it is cured almost 100% IF one goes keyless AND if the string length is kept exceedingly short from the nut ruller to the locking nut.

This is why I want the string to be prestretched as much as possible BEFORE tuning it.

I am intrigued that you; and apparently other Kline owners have not experienced any difficulty when it comes to getting the strings on tightly before tuning them. I am going to try and see a Kline so I can study how they have dealt with a problem I notice on all other keyless PSG's I have seen.

I noticed it the first time I went to change strings on my first keyless PSG. It was a Sierra. I fought it every time I changed strings. I tried pliers, long nose pliers, hemostats, Vice grips, Sierra supplied dowels, etc. Nothing worked satisfactory for me.

Apparently I am not alone, since from time to time the subject pops up on this forum; and the context is always the same, "how do you get that string tight before locking it down?" And then others chime in saying similar things.

I am delighted you and Winnie are having no problems. I have had problems on both my Sierra and my Excel. But using my homemade "prestretcher" has made a frustrating chore a pleasure.

carl

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 25 Feb 2004 1:39 pm

Carl,
Point well taken. Of course I know what hysteris means in this context, I was just wondering if there might not be a better word to describe this happenstance.

On a Kline, the strings just don't have to be pulled that tight. Firm, yes, but not real tight. If I have my needle-nose handy, I will use them on the 3rd string, but only because it is a bit uncomfortable pullin' on that skinny sucker. Again, it doesn't have to be pulled that tight. Must have something to do with the almost straight string pull of the tuner mechanism. I've actually easily pulled a couple of wound strings too tight a couple of times.

I remember, when I bought my Kline, I looked at the tuners, and then at the owner, and told him, "How the heck do I change strings on this thing?" He showed me, in a manner of seconds, not minutes! He said it was great if you broke a string on stage. You could be back runnin' before the song was over. I was dumfounded! What a great design.

JB[This message was edited by John Billings on 25 February 2004 at 01:41 PM.]

Jerry Gleason · Post by **Jerry Gleason** » 26 Feb 2004 12:49 am

I found an old photo of a Bela tuner that was mounted on a Mullen I once considered buying. This model was made to retrofit a standard keyhead, and had a compartment with a sliding lid to take up the extra length. I never owned one myself, but I remember that that each string rode over a movable cam, sort of like a changer finger, so there was no "nut" for the string to be pulled over. Maybe a Bela owner can provide a better description.

Sorry that the photo isn't better quality.

It seems to me that a design like this could allow for something similar to guaged rollers, if the "cams" had a smaller radius for the wound strings.[This message was edited by Jerry Gleason on 26 February 2004 at 12:58 AM.]