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Topic: what about the all pull guitars? |
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 19 Feb 2004 11:54 am |
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The Emmons I had was a push-pull system.
are most of the newer guitars, not just Emmons, but Zum, Franklin, Carter etc an all pull system? I got a lot to learn guys, and a lot of questions, so be patient with me. 
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Terry Wayne |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 19 Feb 2004 12:11 pm
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Hi Terry - yes just about every manufacturer these days, including Emmons makes All-pull guitars.
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2004 12:47 pm
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I know of only one builder today that still uses a P/P. All the rest have long since gone to an all-pull. Modern copedents just aren't efficient with a P/P. This is because in essence they are a single raise/single lower system. Having to reach under any PSG to tune a string is IMO, archaic.
carl |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 19 Feb 2004 12:58 pm
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| I have both kinds. The all-pulls are cheaper to make, easier to tune, and much easier to make your own setup changes on. a simple standard setup can work very well on a push-pull. But if you want to experiment with your own changes like many steelers do, an all-pull is much more convenient. |
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 19 Feb 2004 2:44 pm
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| Thanks for the info ya'll, looks like the all pull is the way to go. I'm way behind everbody else. my Emmons SD-10 was a 1978 model, and i hadn't kept up with all the improvements on the steel guitar. but, I plan on learning a lot from you guys and gals. |
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Frank Estes
From:
Huntsville, AL
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 19 Feb 2004 3:55 pm
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Hmmm??
That's interesting Frank. I shared the stage with you and Big John in Nashville and you weren't saying those things then???
John Fabian |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2004 11:17 pm
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Woof! 
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
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Mike Weirauch
From:
Harrisburg, Illinois**The Hub of the Universe
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 12:02 pm
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| Quote: |
| In a nutshell, you have Emmons push-pulls and all the rest are wanna-bes, tone-wise |
I have a JCH that can turn any push/pull (and I have a killer push/pull) into a JCH wanna be, tone wise. Look at what it did to Buddy Emmons! Oh, it also plays about 10 times smoother than any push/pull I've ever sat down to. It just happens to be the guitar that Jeff Peterson is playing in the new Clint Black video. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 12:10 pm
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| Moved to 'pedal steel' section of the Forum. |
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Frank Estes
From:
Huntsville, AL
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 2:08 pm
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Mike, you don't mean that "tomato-puke" colored JCH do you?
Here I am trying to save Mr. Sneed some time in his search for "the tone" and you guys are trying to send him on a wild goose chase!
Carter Guitars use to have and may still have a '66 Emmons they try to compare their tone to and the BCT (Body Contact Technology) is about attempting to get that sound.
The E-66 pickup is all about trying to get the '66 Emmons sound out of an EMCI.
Recently, we read where Bruce has come up with a new design for Zum to make it sound like a PP.
Paul Franklin once described (on this forum) the tone of a Franklin as somewhere between the warmth of a Sho-Bud and the "zinginess" of an Emmons.
Instead of shooting for "the standard," why not just play one instead!
(I will admit that Buddy sounded incredible with his Legrande III thru rack effects and out a Standel amp at the Bell Cove, but then again that was Buddy!)
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Frank Estes - 1978 Emmons D-10 8+7 #2441D
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Mike Weirauch
From:
Harrisburg, Illinois**The Hub of the Universe
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 6:54 pm
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| Quote: |
| Instead of shooting for "the standard," why not just play one instead |
I do Frank. You should try it some time!
quote:
Mike, you don't mean that "tomato-puke" colored JCH do you?
Yes I'm referring to the dreaded Tomato Puke JCH!
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| I will admit that Buddy sounded incredible with his Legrande III thru rack effects and out a Standel amp at the Bell Cove, but then again that was Buddy |
Wait till you hear his new JCH. JC says it's going to be a killer. |
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Franklin
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 9:15 pm
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Frank,
The Franklin guitar was designed to achieve a solid sound with less overtones. We were not trying to capture an Emmons guitars sound. I already owned a PP and was not happy with all aspects of its sound. There were things about my old Bud's that I missed and neither my Bud or PP was as solid and even toned all the way up the neck on the C6th as my MSA was. Instead we were searching for a solid sound that was great for recording work and we found it.
If I had to describe it with existing familiar sounds, I would still say it lands somewhere between a Bud and the Emmons. I never said or implied we were trying to capture the PP sound....Paul
[This message was edited by Franklin on 20 February 2004 at 09:21 PM.] |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 12:40 am
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Differnt instruments will have different sounds.
Some will work better in some situations and others better in other situations.
And each situation will likely be different depending on the ear physiology, humidity / air preasure, and tastes of individual players.
I can easily see having 4 steels for different gigs or even different songs in the studio setting.
I suspect the hardest trick is to find the best cross section of sounds for what you intend to do in only one steel.
Which is what, IMHO, Paul and his dad were going for.
Ah, the luxury of building your own instruments, as close as your tastes and needs can be met. |
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John Lacey
From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 2:45 am
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| Paul, I see what you and your dad were aiming at, and got. The sound of the guitar must fit in with the band sound of the day. The Emmons fit in with the lighter drums and acoustic bass rhythm section of the 60's and 70's but didn't always cut thru because of the overtones. I believe that the Franklin does mix better with the more "in your face" drum mixes of the present 20 years or so. Having said that, I still love my PP sound, but you as a premier recording cat in the world would have different criteria. |
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Wayne Morgan
From:
Rutledge, TN, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 2:01 pm
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Hi Terry,,
all pull----- push pull
Automatic transmissions--manuel transmissions
If you like driving in heavy traffic, changing gear, or riding in comfort. Not to take away from a PP,,but there are other good sounding Steels. And if BE or paul played a wash tub, it would sound great.
Wayne
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 2:06 pm
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And if BE or paul played a wash tub, it would sound great.
Wayne
I agree 100% on that Wayne.
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TW Sneed
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Feb 2004 4:22 am
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Frank..with all due respect..
Why is the PP the standard for all others to follow ? Is that in the book of Hoyle ?
all others are Wanna'bee's..?
Geeze..tuff crowd..
Incidently..I saw 4 of the nations top players last night..
can you spell "ZUM" (3)...and "Carter" (1)...
Maybe we need to have a come to Jesus talk with those guys .. 
I say play what ya 'brung..but please play in tune..or as close as possible..
Oh..and I also say..just like in the Tele' world..
put 10 different players on the same rig and you will have 10 different tones..
t
[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 February 2004 at 05:25 AM.] |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 22 Feb 2004 6:48 am
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"Incidently..I saw 4 of the nations top players last night.."
and?So what?Are they going to give me money for my guitar or maybe I can get one of the guitars they played for free?If so I might do it just to take it on the road to play in the bars.For me at home,I will always play a good old push pull,why?because nothing sounds like a push pull (to me) and to someone else,hey people would play anything.New Taurus drives better and has a better mileage than an `59 Chrysler 300M but you can keep your Taurus I`ll take me a mint Crysler.Same with the guitars,you can get any of the new age guitars and you might have a better mechanics or lighter case but you wont have one thing,Emmons push pull tone.Sorry.Who were those 4 players,nah,don`t worry about it ,I don`t care anyway.
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Chuck McGill
From:
An hour from Memphis and 2 from Nashville, R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Feb 2004 7:06 am
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Tone is an opinion. I posted once about a very well known steel player's tone just to get a rise. It worked. I happen to love this
players sound so much I have the same Mesa
pre. There is only your opinion of tone and that's all that matters in your world. One man's trash so to speak. I repeat, who has the best tone. Any answer for any steel player, famous or not is right. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Feb 2004 8:57 am
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Damir..lite-in up...
t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 February 2004 at 09:12 AM.] |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 22 Feb 2004 3:28 pm
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ok...
I agree,push pull mechanics are not the best ( I hate it) but the tone is there,at least for me. |
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 22 Feb 2004 4:54 pm
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An analogy.......I loved my 65 pan-head Harley (and especially the way other Harley owners lusted after it), but my 96 Heritage is so much beyond the 65 in handling and reliability, that I would never go back to the "continual care" that was required to keep the 65 in working condition.....and the exhaust note of the 96 is just as soul inspiring as the 65!
www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 23 February 2004 at 07:41 AM.] |
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Frank Estes
From:
Huntsville, AL
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Posted 23 Feb 2004 7:27 am
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Don't know about your PP experience, but mine has been that once they are setup, I almost never have to tune the pedals or knees. Just change the strings and when I play out: set it up, slightly tweak the tuners to get the guitar in tune (mainly the result of temp changes during transit) and I'm good to go. Really!
I have owned 5 of them and wish I could have kept all of them. I really prefer the PP mechanics.
I went back to an all-pull guitar a couple of years ago (in fact, a few of them--Carter, Mullen, Legrande) and I found that in addition to tweaking the tuners, I would have to tweak the nylons on some of pedals/knees. That is in addition to the fact that the PP was more consistent in delivering great tone!
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