| Author |
Topic: Country/Country rock rythm section essential ingredients |
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 10:01 am |
|
Steelers and pro guitarists alike your input would be of value here. Trying to pull a combo together here with limited instrumentation. NO drums (maybe later off and on), lead singer who unfortunately plays NO rhythm guitar, steel (me), and one guitar. Mainly Country/ Country rock--more towards Emmylou than Hag. My guitarist friend of mine who i'm sure will receive any advice offered here in stride and with humor, eats, sleeps and drinks telecasters. If he were to talk to the Pope, he would steer the conversation to his latest tele mod. AND -- he is a very smart creative fellow and I sense that playing basic primary chords are boring and beneath him. Additional benefits include overplaying and between song noodling driving everyone mad. Now personally and generally speaking, given the style of music and the limited instrumentation, I feel the best game plan is to make sure you got acoustic guitar-- smooth and steady strumming away with simple basic chord voicings. That sort of thing seems to have worked fine for the last 70 years or so of Country music and tha past 50 years or so of Country rock. Now, we all love Telecasters of course, but ought not a PRO guitarist have more than one tool in his quiver and be willing and able to cover the bases that need to be covered and to understand what those bases are?
Last edited by Steven Welborn on 26 Sep 2014 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Barry Blackwood
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 10:15 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| I feel the best game plan is to make sure you got acoustic guitar-- smooth and steady strumming away with simple basic chord voicings. |
| Quote: |
| Now, we all love Telecasters of course, but ought not a PRO guitarist have more than tool in his quiver and be willing and able to cover the bases that need to be covered and to understand what those bases are? |
IMO, yes, yes, and yes. |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 10:32 am
|
|
| My recommendation... Join an existing Country Rock Band that would be interested in adding Pedal Steel. |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 10:45 am
|
|
i don't really think 'pro guitarist' is a valid expectation for a group that isn't set up to present a 'pro' act.
in my experience, country rock basically requires at least a bass, drums, and electric guitar. ...not a singer, steel player and an uncooperative guitarist who may be a friend of the pope.
you're already limiting yourselves to a sketchy compromise of a group. |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 11:05 am
|
|
| chris ivey wrote: |
i don't really think 'pro guitarist' is a valid expectation for a group that isn't set up to present a 'pro' act.
in my experience, country rock basically requires at least a bass, drums, and electric guitar. ...not a singer, steel player and an uncooperative guitarist who may be a friend of the pope.
you're already limiting yourselves to a sketchy compromise of a group. |
I'm putting less emphasis on the rock side. Think 'ballads', occasional shuffles. Were not looking to hit the big time. Small town stuff here for enjoyment. but why not get our heads screwed on right and make what we got sound as good as possible? |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 1:39 pm
|
|
| nothing wrong with that as long as you're all on the same page. |
|
|
|
Roger Kelly
From:
Bristol,Tennessee
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 2:08 pm
|
|
What Pete said....if you are unable to find a Band looking for Steel Player, Rhythm Tracks may be your second best choice.  |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 3:05 pm
|
|
In that arrangement, I'd leave my steel in the living room and grab that Kay bass I bought last month.
Until you have the bassics covered, your band isn't ready to gig.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 4:10 pm
|
|
You wanna play rock (country-rock, or any other type of rock) and you don't have a drummer?
And you don't have a bass player either???
You're screwed. 
Seriously, you gotta have the basics taken care of first, or you're just spittin' in the wind. |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 4:22 pm
|
|
Well, this is not going as hoped. Let me try again
We got a-- bass-- one guitar--steel,(sometimes a drummer) instrumentally speaking.
Were playing little venues, speak easy clubs,coffee houses, parties, etc. No big concerts.
Material such as-- Poncho and Lefty, Wagon Wheel, Angel from Montgomery, Walkin After Midnight.
Now your in my shoes playing steel... so... what d'ya want underneath ya guitar wize? |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 4:37 pm
|
|
| Granted it's not the ideal set-up. But g*# d*%#&$ your playin steel so how do you make the best of it? |
|
|
|
Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 5:23 pm
|
|
| Steven Welborn wrote: |
| Granted it's not the ideal set-up. But g*# d*%#&$ your playin steel so how do you make the best of it? |
I bet it could be done - but you might end up "playing bass" - tic-tac-ish - parts a lot. And you might be able to keep one of those Godin thinline "acoustics" on your lap and switch between that and steel. Or something like that - the Taylor Big Baby is smaller, sounds great and would take up less lap.
But without a basic rhythm instrument ( can the singer even use an acoustic as an electric washboard? that'd be more than nothing ) it's harder.
If you're into the combo enough to put the miles in to make it work, that's how innovative sounds come to be. But boy howdy - there'll be a lot of
that four-letter word. |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 5:41 pm
|
|
If I am reading this right, it sounds like you are asking for some specific verbiage to say to the guitar player, to communicate what you need him to play on his guitar when it is your turn to play the Steel parts, which, given the songs you mention, typically include Steel intros/fills/turnarounds/solos and endings.
It sounds like this guitar player is driving you crazy with overplaying and noodling, and is not supporting your steel parts with typical rhythm-guitar style playing.
Some thoughts...
Bring copies of the original versions of the songs you are playing to the next rehearsal, and point out what the guitar player on the recording is doing during the Steel parts.
Point out the "Musical Conversation" that occurs between the guitar player and the steel player, as they each take turns playing fills and solos, then pass it to the other guy when it is his turn to play fills and solos.
Point out that, it is not a musical "conversation" if one guy is "talking" all the time.
"I back you up when you play, you back me up when I play".
"Both of us lay way back whenever words are coming out of the singers mouth".
Try using a simple formula... One guy takes the intro (put "guitar intro" or "steel intro" next to the song title on the set list), then alternate verse/bridge/chorus fills, and solos, throughout the rest of the song, so that one guy is always backing up the other guy.
You make it sound like he is not going to play an acoustic, so, ask him to play full single-strum, beautiful, long-ringing, open-position chords, on his Tele, behind your Steel parts. You may have to ask him to change his current playing style so that this type of rhythm playing becomes 50% if his total playing time on stage, to support your Steel playing, which should also be about 50% of the overall prominent playing time.
I hope this is in the ballpark of what you are asking about. Please forgive if these thoughts are off base. |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 5:50 pm
|
|
please read the initial post-- the combo includes BASS .
Steel guitar... six string guitar... and BASSSSS!!!
now... I played in a TRIO a few years back which lasted for several years. We had a lead singer who played ACOUSTIC rhythm guitar, stand up bass, and the other instrument alternated between six string and steel. The combo sounded fine either way. No problem. It made for a nice full warm sound for parties, coffee houses, whatever. IF the singer had played a tele... not so warm and full and the rhythm would have thinned out faltered somewhat without a dreadnought strumming away me thinks. Does this make sense to anyone but me and one other poster? |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 6:02 pm
|
|
| Pete Burak wrote: |
You make it sound like he is not going to play an acoustic, so, ask him to play full single-strum, beautiful, long-ringing, open-position chords, on his Tele, behind your Steel parts. You may have to ask him to change his current playing style so that this type of rhythm playing becomes 50% if his total playing time on stage, to support your Steel playing, which should also be about 50% of the overall prominent playing time.
I hope this is in the ballpark of what you are asking about. Please forgive if these thoughts are off base. |
That's gettin close.
No lack of verbiage on my part to my bandmate,but some folks are just plain hard to get through too. Sometimes it helps to hear from a greater majority from good sources. |
|
|
|
Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 6:33 pm
|
|
| Steven Welborn wrote: |
please read the initial post-- the combo includes BASS .
Steel guitar... six string guitar... and BASSSSS!!!
now... I played in a TRIO a few years back which lasted for several years. We had a lead singer who played ACOUSTIC rhythm guitar, stand up bass, and the other instrument alternated between six string and steel. The combo sounded fine either way. No problem. It made for a nice full warm sound for parties, coffee houses, whatever. IF the singer had played a tele... not so warm and full and the rhythm would have thinned out faltered somewhat without a dreadnought strumming away me thinks. Does this make sense to anyone but me and one other poster? |
My apologies then. I flat missed it. |
|
|
|
Bruce Repka
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 7:54 pm
|
|
He (guitar player) should atleast try and play something percussive while you (steel) are playing your fills/intros/leads.
If he doesn't want to cooperate, I just don't see how this is going to work out.
By the way, not to nitpick here, but I thought maybe I was going crazy for a minute as I re-read the original posting several times and saw no mention of a bass player. But, I did see it mentioned several posts later.
Who's playing the bass?
_________________
1975 MSA E9th s/n 1S4900
Goodrich 120
NOS Tweed Fender Blues Jr. |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 8:19 pm
|
|
Wow, your right Bruce. My apologies to Lee and the others. Yes the combo does include bass. No wonder I didnt get the responses I expected.  |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 9:58 pm
|
|
Between the neck pickup, bridge pickup and the tone knob, a Tele has the capacity to be pretty versatile. But you can't make him choose other tones.
I love Brent and Albert as much as the next guy, but not every song needs chicken pickin'.
It sounds as though your guitar picker hasn't yet grasped the difference between playing guitar and making music. You can't make someone reach that point.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 26 Sep 2014 11:24 pm
|
|
my experience is that if you have to discuss this stuff with the guitar player it's probably a lost cause.a somewhat experienced picker just naturally
knows this stuff. |
|
|
|
David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
|
Posted 27 Sep 2014 2:13 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| NO drums (maybe later off and on), lead singer who unfortunately plays NO rhythm guitar, steel (me), and one guitar. |
I'm glad the bass player got there. You don't need an acoustic guitar if the guitar player learns how to play better - restraint, a bit of muting and chugging - this is not just helpful with no drummer, but necessary! It's an opportunity for him to improve. And he should love this one because he doesn't need to practice with metronome, do scales, pull licks off records, none of the grind work. All he needs is to think himself better. He can become twice as useful a guitarist with a 1-second decision. And as the steel player you should really, really work hard on the palm-muted chuggy stuff too. Everybody has to play rhythm. No ifs ands or buts. If you're going to impose that on a "lead" guitarist, you have to impose it fully yourself.
You used to hear more complaints around here about how the steel player is always the first one fired, but really - when you see a steel player play the intro, smoke a cigarette, play a solo, quit playing until the next intro - where would you economize first?
I think electric rhythm guitar can and should sound better than that hideous piezo-powered "acoustic" guitar tone that has just been... accepted as good enough. God the Dave Matthews band still sounds awful. As does R.E.M., 85% of "alt-country", those Takamines & Ovations - wow. I think Takamine must have a... contract, or blackmail... with the Grand Ole Opry or something? I've seen BLUEGRASS bands, the fiddle leans into the mike for his solo, as does the dobro player, as does the banjo.... and the guitarist is off in the corner, quacking to himself on his Takamine duckcall through a long cord!
I've come to prefer playing without a drummer when possible,  for two reasons. One, they always define the volume of the whole band, and it's always upward. MIKING drums - in a 150-seat CHURCH? WTF... and TWO: what I've heard called "the tyranny of the drum kit." EVERY drum part is divided into snare, hi-hat, and bass drum. Go look in a drum book! "The Drummers Bible" by Mick Berry & Jason Gianni is a book every songwriter, bassist, band member should own, and read. Once the reductive formula is applied to make every song subservient to three drums, the tomtoms can be added back in. But once you know the specific rhythms that need to be there, anybody can put them in.
I've work more as a bass player than everything else, but I've got this notion of just... NOT changing instruments anymore. I've got the Boss VF-1 pitch shifter working OK - you have to pick the strings on the steel really close to the bridge, use a heavier bar than I usually like, keep the string volume down and let the amp do the heavy lifting... AND LEARN THE BASS PARTS. But, even a .072" string can hold a G on a 24-inch scale, just three frets off the lowest note of an electric bass, so you don't really need the box.
You and the guitar player can look into playing lots of doublestops to keep if full. There's a truth-laden cliche that rock 'n' roll is just playing broken chords. Learn the bass parts, learn the guitar parts. But sparse music with lots of air in it can be really neat. When it's good.  |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 27 Sep 2014 5:40 am
|
|
| Steven Welborn wrote: |
please read the initial post-- the combo includes BASS .
Steel guitar... six string guitar... and BASSSSS!!!
|
Excuse my stupidity, I read the initial post...
| Quote: |
Trying to pull a combo together here with limited instrumentation. NO drums (maybe later off and on), lead singer who unfortunately plays NO rhythm guitar, steel (me), and one guitar. |
...but I STILL don't see BASS anywhere in the initial post.
Now, that said, it sounds like you've found a good guitar player who's not playing what you like. But, no matter how good he is...if he can't play what you want, and he doesn't "fit" with your ideas, find someone else. You're probably thinking he's great and all that, but the time you spend trying to pull him down to your way of thinking and playing would be better spent, IMHO, on someone who's not as good, and is wanting to do what you're doing.
It's a lot harder to "unhook" a player from his basic mindset when he's already an accomplished player. Newer, less accomplished players, are far easier to mold into what you want.
Been there, done that. |
|
|
|
Storm Rosson
From:
Silver City, NM. USA
|
Posted 27 Sep 2014 7:05 am
|
|
I'm with Donny, without a real combo rhythm section (bass and drums) you have a wimpy assed Holiday Inn happy hour lounge lizard trio ....until one of u guys become a multi-instrumentalist prodigy,IMHO.  |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 27 Sep 2014 9:58 am
|
|
| Steven Welborn wrote: |
please read the initial post-- the combo includes BASS .
Steel guitar... six string guitar... and BASSSSS!!!
|
this could become a classic! |
|
|
|
Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
|
Posted 27 Sep 2014 10:22 am
|
|
This brings to light how many musicians and steel players view the steel guitar. As an addition. The beauty of the S-12 Uni is you can play almost all and any of the stringed instrument parts. There is more to this instrument than playing fills intro's and turn arounds.
I don't know how many times I have read on these pages and elsewhere when I or someone ask about slash chords or extended chords, the reply is let the bass player play the bass notes. That is like telling a piano player only play with your right hand.
The steel guitar lends itself to a World way beyond plunking tab in a garage band. But like Franklin said we are on musical train and we ride it as far as we choose, how appropriate. So to answer the initial question. What you need is people with talent and passion and willingness to work with a group for a musical conclusion.
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
|
|
|
